The 9 Keys to Vital Living After Trauma

What does it really take to move from trauma, stress, and burnout into a life of vitality, purpose, and post-traumatic growth?

In this powerful episode of Growing Tall Poppies, I sit down with Dr. Deborah Zucker — naturopathic physician, mental health counselor, health coach, and award winning author of The Vitality Map and The Vitality Journal. Deborah shares her groundbreaking 9 Keys to Vital Living, which support deep healing, nervous system repair, and sustainable resilience.

Together, we explore:
 ✨ Why burnout is often a sign of unresolved trauma in the nervous system
 ✨ How cultivating resilience goes beyond self-care into nervous system repair
 ✨ The importance of saying a courageous “YES” — and pruning away draining “NOs”
 ✨ The role of community, connection, and vulnerability in true post-traumatic growth
 ✨ How to live like you matter — honoring your gifts without falling into self-sacrifice

Deborah also opens up about her own journey, navigating recurrent chronic fatigue, motherhood later in life, and the lessons she continues to learn about slowing down, honoring her truth, and showing up authentically.

If you’ve ever felt stuck, burnt out, or unsure how to move forward after trauma, this conversation is filled with compassion, wisdom, and practical tools to help you reclaim vitality and wholeness.

🔗 Resources & Links Mentioned in This Episode:

• Deborah’s website: https://vitalmedicine.com
• The Vitality Map book + The Vitality Journal (available Oct 1 on Amazon & bookstores worldwide)
• Connect with Deborah on:-
• Instagram,
• Facebook  
• LinkedIn
• SPECIAL OFFER for Podcast Listeners :- Work with Dr Deborah and get 15% OFF ! PLUS a FREE download here:- vitalmedicine.com/podcast

💬 If this episode resonates with you, please subscribe, leave a review, and share it with someone who could use hope and healing today.

If this episode resonates with you then I'd love for you to hit SUBSCRIBE so you can keep updated with each new episode as soon as it's released and we'd be most grateful if you would give us a RATING as well. You can also find me on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/drnatgreen/ or on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/DrNatalieGreen

Intro and Outro music: Inspired Ambient by Playsound.

Disclaimer: This podcast is intended for educational purposes only. It is not intended to be deemed or treated as psychological treatment or to replace the need for psychological treatment.

Transcript

Dr Nat Green: 0:01

Welcome to the Growing Tall Poppies Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Nat Green, and I'm so excited to have you join me as we discuss what it means to navigate your way through post-traumatic growth and not just survive, but to thrive after trauma. Through our podcast, we will explore ways for you to create a life filled with greater purpose, self-awareness, and a deep inner peace. Through integrating the many years of knowledge and professional experience, as well as the wisdom of those who have experienced trauma firsthand. We'll combine psychology accelerated approaches. Coaching and personal experience to assist you, to learn, to grow and to thrive. I hope to empower you to create deeper awareness and understanding and stronger connections with yourself and with others, whilst also paving the way for those who have experienced trauma and adversity to reduce their suffering and become the very best versions of themselves. In order to thrive. Thank you so much for joining me on today's episode. I'm super excited and grateful today to bring you our next guest on the Growing Tall Poppies podcast. It's my pleasure to welcome an amazing lady who has experienced her own trauma and adversity throughout her life. And she has so kindly agreed to come and chat with us today about her personal and her professional experience and to share her wisdom with us. So let me start by welcoming Debra Zucker. Debra is a naturopathic physician, therapist, health coach, and the award-winning author of The Vitality Map and the soon to be released accompanying the Vitality Journal. Her work empowers individuals to navigate the. Deep transitions of life with resilience, self-compassion, and community. So welcome Deborah. It's so great to have you here.

Deborah Zucker: 2:23

Thanks Nat I'm really glad to be in conversation with you today.

Dr Nat Green: 2:27

Yes. I'm so looking forward to it. It's been a while in the planning. I know, but I'm so excited that you're here So. Can we just start with you giving us a brief introduction of who you are and what you do in the world these days?

Deborah Zucker: 2:42

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, you already offered some of the introduction of some of the credentials. Um, but you know, I live in Bellingham, Washington. Addition to having my own business, vital medicine, where I primarily serve women, who are in times of significant life transition, grief, yeah. Rebirthing themselves or. Needing kind of a, a deeper orientation to how to care for themselves in ways that actually allows them to show up with the vitality and wellbeing that is their birthright. And in addition to that, I have a five-year-old daughter, Amy and husband Rich. And, our home is right near the Canadian border here in the northwest corner of the United States. And. Love spending lots of time outside gardening. Um, yeah. Mm.

Dr Nat Green: 3:38

And you've just come out of summer over there, haven't you? So you're in fall? Yes, yes. We're just emerging in spring. That's my bright orange shirt today. To, bring that vitality and energy. And I'm really excited to hear some strategies from you about how to continue to build that. So I'm just wondering if you could share an overview.'cause we know that the guests that I have on here have experienced trauma or adversity in their life and they. Really generously share how they navigated that. So I'm just wondering if you could share an overview of what's happened for you.

Deborah Zucker: 4:17

Hmm. Yeah. Well my, my journey that then turned into my professional calling to began in my early twenties when I spiraled down into chronic fatigue, depression, a host of other symptoms, and at the time, it felt like it came outta nowhere. I was like, I was moving along, you know, in this new young adult. Yeah. Period, you know, of all this sense of possibility. And then it was like I ran into a brick wall and my life kind of came to a standstill. And instead I found myself barely able to get outta bed and really disoriented with yeah, what was going on. And that led to just a, a deep ongoing inquiry into, um. You know, what is health? And starting with the physical level and then diving into more of the mental, emotional and the spiritual aspects of the journey. And kind of discovering, you know, on my own, I started with more conventional approaches to health, with consultations with doctors and the diagnoses I was given just didn't feel like they Yeah, really got to what was really going on. And then I just expanded into more holistic perspectives and other kinds of practitioners and that led me to, explore naturopathic medicine. Mm-hmm. You know, to, to explore that vocationally and then mental health counseling and coaching. And, I found myself along the way. It was like there were these parallel journeys where what I was learning, just in my own healing, I was. In as I was in these professional trainings, and so I just kept having this question of like, what's missing? Like what am I not being trained in? What are, what are some of the pieces that I am learning that are actually kind of core and essential? To my own vitality and wellbeing that aren't really being talked about or aren't really being emphasized in the ways that I am discovering they really need to be. Mm. And so that led to the heart of my work in Vital Medicine and eventually through, work with clients and leading groups, I distilled them down into nine keys. And, and those became the framework that I bring forward in my two books. The Vitality Map and The Vitality Journal that is, uh, coming out soon. Oh,

Dr Nat Green: 6:48

I love that so much. You just gave so many gold nuggets in there. I'm trying to try and remember it all and unpack and I think, and one thing that I'm very much an advocate for is I really believe. That, yes, we can do all this research, we can do all this training. We go to uni, we get all this information. Yeah. But lived experience adds that deeper layer because then we have that empathy, but also. Really get it. Yes. So I love that your inquisitive mind, which clearly was there way before the chronic fatigue started, that you just kept going and kept going until you were satisfied that you'd approached it holistically and really were looking at the deeper root cause.

Deborah Zucker: 7:42

Yes, yes. I, I so agree with that. And, it brings this sense of, you know, we're all just humans on the journey together and takes that, you know, it can sometimes feel there, like it's there with health practitioners of just the hierarchy and, and instead it's like, Hey, I am walking the path too. I'm learning as I go. I may be a bit further along in some ways. And also have some expertise to offer in these other ways. But when it comes down to it, one human being, you know, with another

Dr Nat Green: 8:15

Absolutely. You nailed it. Because really we are all humans and I, I find that so often and a lot of my guests, we've been having these conversations lately that, you know, as a clinical psychologist background and now I really just. Say I'm a post-traumatic growth coach because I like that shared experience and that moving through the journey together rather than being on this almost pedestal that you're an expert. And sure, we've got the training, but we are not experts and we walk our talk and we just know what's worked for us, what we've seen in our clients, and it really helps bring that magic together. Yeah, so I love that you've highlighted that. So do you recall like a turning point or significant realization that helped you shift from that barely surviving to thriving back then? Mm,

Deborah Zucker: 9:19

yeah. Well, I would say it's like, there's like different points, you know, different layers of it. So. Yeah, it's like I had that early phase in, in my twenties that I talked about that kind of propelled me into, you know, this, this life path, this calling where I was just called to share what I was learning with everyone else and, and so that was a significant turning point. But I didn't feel like, I still felt like I was learning, you know, how to bring my energy back. Like I didn't feel like I was, I was thriving at that point. Mm. But I gotten outta bed and I was able to function again, so sort of that phase. And I went through school and I actually got about halfway through the naturopathic medical training and was pretty burned out and felt like I wasn't connected with, why I was there anymore, just kind of going through the motions for that, end point of graduating. And I chose to take a break, which ended up being a two year break where I didn't actually know if I was going back. Okay. And kind of unplugged from a lot of, of just the daily expectations and, sense of stripping down identities and, mm. And really came into this deeper inquiry, which did lead to the nine that I mentioned before, because I discovered, oh, if I, like I went off a lot of the protocols. I'd been on and discovered that when I was. Choosing this? Yes. Of aligning my life with some of these things that really were calling me and taking off some of the burdens that I'd been holding or the expectations that others had put on me or I had put on myself. Mm-hmm. I started to really come alive and to feel more of that sense of thriving, that sense of what was possible. And that was a really pivotal time for me. But then there were other layers later.'cause I actually cycled back into chronic fatigue after I went back to school. And then after I graduated, um, and I was in a residency program. I hit another point where I cycled back into chronic fatigue, and that was sort of another sort of level of, of waking up and learning some of these lessons in a way that I hadn't dropped into fully. And, and that led to the birth of my business. Vital medicine and really honoring the unique forms of what I'm called to do. You know, stepping out of, again, some of the expectations or forms that I had seen modeled for me and realizing like, no, like my work in the world needs to fully align. You know, that's such a, and that's actually one of my nine keys is aligning with your, yes. Because I, I learn like how sensitive my system is. My energy is to when I'm engaged with investing my life energy mm-hmm. Where it's not aligned and where it's like the life energy goes down the hole in the life bucket. Mm-hmm. And yeah, so I found like how sensitive I was to that and, and that really has ever since. Given me a courage to really step out and keep following my unique path and offering programs and books and other things that speak to the truth that it feels like I'm here to bring.

Dr Nat Green: 12:34

Mm, very, very powerful and. Again, so many layers. So it's that energy. And you talked about other people's expectations as well as our own expectations, because often the people that. I have come on the show often, high achievers, and we've put all these expectations on ourselves, but we also in the health profession and allied health profession really have these others expectations and we take that on. And I love that you said you completely stopped, rested and had two years. Where you actually peeled back those layers and took that break that you knew you needed. But what I also was very interested in, and I know because I've been there many times, unfortunately, took a while to learn the lessons, is that a lot of those things crept back in and the chronic fatigue came back. Mm-hmm. So what do you think was one of the key things that you were neglecting at the time that brought that back?

Deborah Zucker: 13:49

I mean, when I look at it kind of with the big picture, this, it isn't a simple black and white. Mm-hmm. There's lots of con contributing things. One is what I was speaking to before around, you know, lack of alignment. Mm-hmm. That I was just, I was depleting myself because I was investing in kind of a form of being and way of practicing medicine that really wasn't my form.

Dr Nat Green: 14:11

Mm-hmm. And,

Deborah Zucker: 14:13

Another aspect of it that was also a significant part of my healing was I discovered during that time of emerging from that chronic fatigue the second time. Mm-hmm. How I hadn't had a direct relationship with my own anger before. And Okay. Yeah, just that wasn't modeled for me as a kid. Mm-hmm. I so quickly, you know, just translated the feeling of anger into sort of a collapse and sadness and tears mm-hmm. And sort of a disempowered place.

Dr Nat Green: 14:45

Yeah.

Deborah Zucker: 14:46

And, I. Joined a somatic therapy group that I ended up being in for about 10 years, and through that work and that healing, I found that connection with anger and that voice and that sense of strength of boundary.

Dr Nat Green: 15:04

Yes.

Deborah Zucker: 15:04

And. So that integrated some past healing. Mm-hmm. And it also really helped me to yeah. Sort of own, again, my own truth, my boundary and, learn to say no in like a real way. Mm-hmm. Yes. That was also really significant for reclaiming my energy and, and it was like, it was a whole other level that didn't show up. That first round of chronic fatigue. It didn't show up in that sort of sabbatical time. So it just, for me, you know, I think it's important to share these kinds of stories because it's like. It, it's not a linear path and it's not like we figure things out once and boom, we have it made for the rest of our life because Sure. We keep evolving, right. It's like we keep evolving and changing and our capacity keeps deepening if we continue to consciously be in that growth and healing journey. Mm-hmm. And so I kind of feels like I got to the point where I was ready to go there and open up some of these parts and, past wounding that needed to be opened.

Dr Nat Green: 16:04

Yes. And as you said, look, we know that our bodies keep the score, that it has everything, all our experiences mapped in there and hidden in there and we only see. What we are ready to see, when we're ready to see it. So the layers peel off and it shows itself, as you've beautifully articulated, that's what happened. And when you are ready to do it, you can deepen it and find the next layer and the next layer. Yeah. So thank you so much for sharing that. I know you've mentioned the nine Keys to Deep Vitality, and I would. Love, if you could share those mm-hmm. And why they're so crucial for individuals at points in their life.

Deborah Zucker: 16:53

Yes. I'd be happy to. There's, there's a lot to each of them, so I'll just give kind of a brief Yeah. Overview of each, just to give a little taste. Mm-hmm. Yeah, just to give just a little intro, in addition to what I said about where they were born from is also like, I think of these as vitality fundamentals, like relationships with ourself and basic life skills, you know, that most of us were never taught and so. So listeners may find, you know, there's kind of a simplicity to them on one level where it's sort of like, of course, but then like to actually live, integrate them and live from the wisdom that they point to, can be incredibly, incredibly transformative.

Dr Nat Green: 17:40

Mm-hmm.

Deborah Zucker: 17:40

So, the first key is honoring your unique life.

Dr Nat Green: 17:46

And

Deborah Zucker: 17:46

this one is, at the foundation, it's really about coming into a relationship with ourself and our life in which we don't take it for granted. In which we live day to day. From the place of really recognizing the, miracle of being alive and in a body and conscious of that, just like wow. And that we're each unique, there never has or will ever be another me and. And to shift our orientation towards self care from it feeling like a burden or that whole long list of to-dos that we get all stressed about or have those self judgments or sense of failure around, and instead sort of get underneath all of that and actually feel the honor it is to take care of this life.

Dr Nat Green: 18:41

Hmm.

Deborah Zucker: 18:42

The reverence of, again, just wow, like I am alive. I don't know how long I'm gonna be here. You know, we're each mortal. We could be here another day or many years. We just don't know. And to live and cultivate a practice and awareness of living more from that place and rooting our relationship to self care from there.

Dr Nat Green: 19:01

Mm. So important.

Deborah Zucker: 19:04

Yeah. So that's the first one. And the foundation. The second is facing and embracing your shadows.

Dr Nat Green: 19:12

Mm-hmm. I love this part. Yes,

Deborah Zucker: 19:15

yes, yes. And this is a big missing piece, in the realm of health and self-care. Mm-hmm. Luckily, I'm really happy it's being talked about more in mental healthcare and coaching with, internal family systems, talking about parts work and things like that. But this one really acknowledges that we all have unconscious parts of ourselves that are running the show.

Dr Nat Green: 19:38

Mm-hmm. That

Deborah Zucker: 19:39

because unconscious, we're not really aware of, but we are aware that we watch ourselves in avoidance patterns in taking care of ourselves or even self-sabotaging patterns. And it can be very disorienting and confusing to. Why can't I actually engage in things that I know make me feel better, that support my wellbeing that are aligned for me and we just trip ourselves up and spin ourselves around. And so that's what this key is about is, is tending to those unconscious parts, integrating them lovingly, and coming home to ourselves more fully in that way so that we can actualize the changes we seek. Mm. And feel more at home in ourselves. Yeah.

Dr Nat Green: 20:24

Yeah. That sounds to me like a very powerful one and definitely a missing piece. And I know, I love that we've been talking about it on this podcast recently around that shadow work. Yes. The importance of the shadow work, that there's always this other part and we really need to explore it and honor it, that it's there for a reason. Yes. And start to be game enough to explore it.

Deborah Zucker: 20:51

Yeah, yeah. With curiosity and love and empathy for those parts, just, yeah, to really turn towards them is not something that's wrong with ourselves or that something that needs to be suppressed, but instead like, Hey, these are parts that are wounded or, mm-hmm. Yeah. Have been able to come into the light. They've, yeah. Yeah. Maybe intergenerationally things have been passed down and

Dr Nat Green: 21:18

Yes, often, often that's what we see, isn't it? Intergenerational trauma and, and we have to almost Yeah. Be reparented or reparent ourselves. Yes. And it's no one's fault. It just is because I'm a firm believer that we all do the best we can with what we have.

Deborah Zucker: 21:36

Yes, yes. So, key number three, just to, to keep moving on, is, strengthening your self-awareness muscles.

Dr Nat Green: 21:44

Hmm.

Deborah Zucker: 21:45

This one, you know, again, I think of as a basic life skill. Most of us were never taught, like how to actually become intimate with the feedback that's there for us. Mm-hmm. 24 7. You know, that's helping to guide us towards what brings us alive and what doesn't. And that. Is available to us, but most of us just haven't learned the language. Like we haven't learned how to really be that attuned with ourselves. And instead what happens because we haven't learned that, is that we get spun around by all the new health fads. We get spun around by the advice of all the people we know in our lives and we can defer to, um, the protocols or guidance of, doctors and health practitioners without really. Being able to filter it through our own self knowing.

Dr Nat Green: 22:35

Hmm. And so

Deborah Zucker: 22:36

this key really helps us to find that empowered place of recognizing that we're our own best health guide.

Dr Nat Green: 22:43

Mm-hmm.

Deborah Zucker: 22:44

And from that place we can lean in for support and take in, all the information out there, but to start by cultivating that awareness in ourselves.

Dr Nat Green: 22:52

Mm. Yeah. So. Excellent. Yeah. So what will, what's the next key?

Deborah Zucker: 22:59

Yeah. So key four is cultivating resilience. And this key is kind of tag teaming that one. So when we expand our awareness, then it's like, well, what do we do with that? And cultivating resilience is about how do we self-regulate, how do we. Find our feet again when life pulls the rug out from underneath us. How do we find our way in a world that is increasingly stressful and chaotic that has elements of existential. Realities that we're navigating and Yeah, and just the fullness of our lives. And so just to live in reality, like there's no such thing as a stress-free life. Mm-hmm. There's no such thing as a predictable life. Like everything just keeps changing. And so cultivating resilience is how do we develop the skills and capacities to find our feet again, to navigate in the midst of all that life throws our way. And, particularly I think these days, a big part of it is, learning how to regulate our nervous system to help to calm, come back to that calm, rest, relax place as, more of the baseline and just how vital that is with, you know, if you look at the epidemics of anxiety and depression, burnout, and all these stress related illnesses, which you know, is a reality in our world today.

Dr Nat Green: 24:29

Absolutely. And, how often do we see burnout? And, one of the things that I'll, I'll try not to rant and get on a pedestal right now, is, is that burnout is often diagnosed in inverted commas, or people are saying, oh, I'm so burnt out. But what we find is there's usually this trauma underlying it.

Deborah Zucker: 24:50

Mm-hmm.

Dr Nat Green: 24:51

Something that's been held in our nervous system. Yeah. That we need to work out how to softly, gently work through. Yeah. So we can start to really repair and heal our nervous system, which then will change our burnout experience. Yes. Yeah. Yes to that. That's a powerful key. I really, yeah. Really like that one.

Deborah Zucker: 25:13

Yeah. And then key number five is what I already touched into a bit in my own story. It's aligning with your Yes.

Dr Nat Green: 25:20

Yeah.

Deborah Zucker: 25:20

And this is also related to burnout. Yes. As I'm speaking through before. Yeah. And so, you know, in addition to what I've already said, I'll just say this one's huge. I think it's a huge missing piece for so many of us.

Dr Nat Green: 25:33

Mm-hmm. You

Deborah Zucker: 25:34

know, to. Step out of all the external expectations and things that we've been told we're supposed to be or do, and really tune into what's my truth,

Dr Nat Green: 25:47

what

Deborah Zucker: 25:48

is my clear Yes. And to have the courage to step into that, whether it's, the little choices throughout the day or a bigger soul's calling, and then the flip side of that, that's absolutely essential is getting clear about our NO's. So, yes. I use the analogy of pruning our life. So we need to, you know, prune away, in the right timing and, with, support the things that, that really do not belong, where we're investing our life energy, where we're not getting returns.

Dr Nat Green: 26:18

Yeah. So those things that really drain us. And it's okay to prune them away because it's about, as you said, you're looking at vital medicine and that vitality and you can't coexist with constant drains. Yeah. Without it having a big impact on your life and your body.

Deborah Zucker: 26:38

Yes. Yes. Yeah. And that gets back to honoring your unique life, the first key.

Dr Nat Green: 26:43

Exactly. So they're definitely all interconnected, aren't they? Which, as we know when you've done the healing and you are living, breathing evidence for that. Mm-hmm.

Deborah Zucker: 26:57

Yeah. So key number six. Is experimenting with playful curiosity. Mm. And this one, I love this one too.'Cause it just like, it takes sort of the burden off, or the pressure or all the rights and wrongs and sense of failure that can be there with how we're guiding ourselves in our life. We're taking care of ourselves. And instead, the rule book gets to get thrown, thrown out. And we can orient in an experimental way where we try things out and we learn as we go. Mm-hmm. And we can. Curious and playful and, enjoy the journey as one that's dynamic because again, we're constantly changing and growing. So it doesn't work to sort of like create this expectation that we're gonna stick to something for the rest of our lives, or, it's gonna look just like this instead, like. Let's be flexible and adaptable and, try something out for a couple weeks and learn from it. And then tweak it if it needs to, maybe happen in a different way or totally scrap it and try something new, like

Dr Nat Green: 27:59

mm-hmm. Yeah.

Deborah Zucker: 27:59

Get to just kind of be in the journey in an intentional way where we're staying present to what's actually emerging and what's happening for us.

Dr Nat Green: 28:08

Yeah. I think presence is a really important thing, isn't it? Yeah. To, we're human beings, not human doings. Yes. So to just be and be present is, one of my greatest learnings of late, always a work in progress. But yeah, I like that one. Yes.

Deborah Zucker: 28:27

And key number seven is discovering easeful discipline. So this is about reframing our whole orientation to discipline, that it doesn't have to be harsh or mean or judgmental, or we don't have to will ourselves into things we can actually find an easeful way. To support ourselves where we have our own back, where we are experimenting and enjoying the journey, but we recognize that discipline's needed'cause any habit change, needs discipline to help over that uncomfortable transitional time.

Dr Nat Green: 28:59

Mm-hmm.

Deborah Zucker: 29:00

So with easeful discipline, we have clear commitments. We develop really intelligent strategies that kinda look at the realities with clear eyes of what's going on, in our lives. And we attend to the competing commitments and obstacles in a really intentional way. And then we create structures of support to hold us in the process. Both people as well as, different things like our calendars or reminders or mm-hmm. Books or other playful things that can just kind of keep us in the process. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And then key eight is inviting support and connection. And so this one, it's number eight, but it's really, the embrace of it all. It acknowledges that we are relational creatures and we need each other. We can't do this alone. And in fact, like the isolation that so often happens and in our healing journeys, is. Part of, what needs attending. So I really encourage teams of support, that we really look at the different kinds of support to bring on board. And I'm a big proponent, and this is a big part of my work, is bringing people together in groups to engage in, group healing and, particularly women's circles, both online and in person, as a way to just really honor just the ways in which we're wired. To, sort of open and, and self-actualize when we are held and witnessed in that kind of mutuality.

Dr Nat Green: 30:30

Yeah. So really creating communities.

Deborah Zucker: 30:33

Yes.

Dr Nat Green: 30:33

Yes. And being part of a community. Yes. And giving and taking. So being able to give and share, but also giving yourself permission to accept Yes. Help from others as well. So important. Yes. So vital. Absolutely. So key number nine.

Deborah Zucker: 30:55

Yeah, the ninth key is living like you matter, and this key really kind of brings it full circle. It acknowledges that. In order to show up in the world, in order to be of support in whatever ways that we are, whatever scale that is, in order to be a presence in the world, we need to start by cultivating our own wellbeing. We need to fill our well so that we can continue to show up and this just feels so, so. Vital. These days, like we have so much need in our world right now, there's so much that needs attending in their close in circles and on a global level. And we need, people who are vital and have the, personal sustainability to keep showing up and, bring their unique gifts. This is, that's the other part of this living like you matter, is like each of us has our own presence and gifts to bring to the world and to honor that and to let go of the wiring that may have us sacrificing or being a martyr or yeah, sort of running ourselves into the ground in our service in the world that that doesn't serve anyone.

Dr Nat Green: 32:13

Oh yes. I love that you said that. And I know one of my key turning points when I did my own breakthrough work was really around that self-sacrificing, that good old martyr ingrained pattern that, again, transgenerational and yeah, it's been so important for me to, to identify that, to get that, as you said, all the working through the keys and to have that level of awareness. To then do something about it. But as you've said, it's about self-care, but it's also that responsibility that we have. Mm-hmm. Particularly as helping and health professionals helping others, we have to do our own work. Yes. And that's so many times I know the way that I was trained, that wasn't a focus. Not at all. It's changed. Thank goodness. I've been doing this for 35 years. It wasn't taught at all back then. And thankfully and often because of the shadow work that's now been identified and the levels of burnout, right in helping and health professionals are massive. Yes. Because as you said at the beginning, we're human fancy that, fancy that we're actually just mere, human beings and we all need to do the work and we can't do it alone. Absolutely. So, uh, I love your nine keys and I'm really excited and definitely going to be buying a copy of your book. And I guess one of the things, you've shared a number of them and I know they'll be intertwined in there. What would you say would be specific qualities or personal attributes? That you see as being key for moving through trauma into post-traumatic growth?

Deborah Zucker: 34:10

Hmm. I mean, the first thing that comes to mind is the courage to be vulnerable and that comes along with the discernment around finding those safe spaces and people to be able to lean into.

Dr Nat Green: 34:33

Mm-hmm. To

Deborah Zucker: 34:33

be held in that way. Yes. Yeah. But that to me is such, that's the pathway. It's like being able to be vulnerable, being able to have the courage to really feel and. Own, one's true experience and to have it be witnessed and held in safe, loving places like that, the transformation that happens through that relational space is huge to then. Yeah, sort of really, come through that birth canal, into this next iteration of ourselves where there's, a level of integration and wholeness that can be there from what we've lived through. And, then, translating that into who we are and how we show up in the world. And. Yeah. And that, just gets back to what I was saying before about, we're all just humans on this journey and, yeah. Being at home in our own skin with whatever that journey has been. Mm-hmm. And. Yeah. But with discernment around how we share that and who we share that with, so that, there's that self-love and having our own back that goes with, that honoring of being our own, guide in this life.

Dr Nat Green: 35:58

Yeah, and I think part of that also is it makes such a difference when you're able to be vulnerable. Embrace your vulnerability, but it's also important not to just share that everywhere from a gaping wound, but from, you know, a healing wound or a healed wound. And that having that level of awareness and really working through those keys in the way that you've shared is very powerful. Yeah. Yeah. I love it. Very, very important. So. I know that you have got a new journal you're about to release, so I'd love for you to tell us about that and, where we can find that.'cause I know that our listeners will be very, very keen to find out more about your nine keys.

Deborah Zucker: 36:50

Mm-hmm. Yeah, thank you. I, actually have both books sitting right here, so I'll just give a little glimpse of each. So this is The Vitality Map, my original book, and then the Vitality Journal, which is about to come out, is here. And so, yeah, it's a companion book, so it goes through the same buying keys and whereas the map, has. Goes into depth in all the keys and has stories and personal sharings and it does have some prompts and practices. Mm-hmm. The journal is all about just the prompts and practices, so it gives sort of a brief overview of each of the keys, but goes right into a personal process. So it's like a guided journey and, yeah. And my hope is that, it'll be a resource for people to, regardless of whether, what other kinds of support they have on board that they can really explore in depth in their own way and in their own pace. These nine keys and, it is, it's available, for pre-order now, but October 1st is when it is released, and you can find on Amazon or order it through any bookstore.

Dr Nat Green: 37:58

Oh, that's fabulous. And I'll put all of that in our show notes as well. So, our, all our listeners can jump on board and, support you, but also know that this is gonna be, we've got the map, but also now, the how to, to do our own work, which I think will be very, very powerful. I'll be signing up straight away. Thank you for that. Thank you very much. What, is there anything else you'd like to share about maybe any important lessons you've learned as a result of your own journey?

Deborah Zucker: 38:36

Um, yeah, I think, it's coming, coming up in the moment,'cause I feel like in a lot of ways everything I've shared today are big lessons from my journey.

Dr Nat Green: 38:48

Absolutely.

Deborah Zucker: 38:49

Yeah. But I just, I just feel like, like even just this last week, I've had some just reminders of. Honoring just the, truth of whatever's going on inside, and slowing down enough to be with it. Like this last week, I, as an example, I've had, this, the leading up to this book launch time, I'm also promoting some local programs. My daughter just went back to school. I have a five, 5-year-old. I think I mentioned that. Yeah. So it just, it's been a very full transitional time and one I've, I've learned like, okay, I don't think September, at least in where I live, is not a good time for me to be promoting book or programs. There's just too much going on inside myself and others. But it was also like, okay, like I need to do this in a pace and in a way that feels congruent for me. Like let go of the pressures and the expectations of it needing to be a certain way or how I did it before and just keep coming back. Like the feedback I'm getting right now is slow down. Mm-hmm. Feel the tiredness. Like get outside on some hikes, like trust. The process that, yeah, it's all unfolding as it needs to, that just feels like a lesson that I need to learn over and over again. But, and it's also, it's just like that's what I'm bringing forth in the book that I'm promoting. It's like, okay, here we go. Like that's nudge, nudge,

Dr Nat Green: 40:17

like Exactly. Sometimes we take a little while to get our lessons, don't we? I speak from great. Experience with that experience, and I guess for you as well, if your daughter's only five, I'm assuming this is her first year at school, so this is all new for you. Yes. So as you experience things for the first time, you are looking openly for the lessons and seeing them. And I think that's a key because sometimes it takes, as I said many times to get the lessons.

Deborah Zucker: 40:49

Yes. And also, I guess what I wanna say with that too is like our life circumstances keep changing, right? Mm-hmm. So it's like what worked for me before I had, my daughter doesn't work in the same way anymore. So it's just staying open and tuned, like, okay, like this needs to happen differently now. Yeah. Different realities, different priorities.

Dr Nat Green: 41:09

Yeah, very much so. So, yeah. Deborah, as we move to wrapping this conversation up, where can our listeners find out more about you and find you online?

Deborah Zucker: 41:19

Well my website is Vital Medicine. Mm-hmm. And I actually have a special landing page for podcast listeners vital medicine.com/podcast. And on there are, links to the books and links to free resources. And I also offer a discount,, for those who wanna engage in any of my programs. I do a lot of virtual work as well, and I even have a virtual, book launch coming up on October 15th. And in case any listeners wanna listen, or step into that experience too, fantastic. So, yeah.

Dr Nat Green: 41:55

That's very generous. I will definitely put that in the show notes. So vital medicine.com/podcast. Yes. Yes. So I'll do that and I'll share all your links and I know you are newly. Hanging out on Instagram more?

Deborah Zucker: 42:13

Yes. Yeah, I'm sort of, I am, I'm trying out the different social media in some new ways, so Instagram's still building for me, but I have a wonderful assistant now who's helping me with that kind of outreach and presence. And I'm on Facebook and LinkedIn as well.

Dr Nat Green: 42:29

Fantastic. And you and I might even test out a live conversation on Instagram so our listeners can, come and. Chat a bit more and, even ask us questions while we're hanging out there. So that might be good.

Deborah Zucker: 42:43

Yeah.

Dr Nat Green: 42:43

Excellent. So stay tuned for that, everyone. Now Deborah, as I wrap up, I usually ask my guests a question, and it's one of my favorite ones and I'd love to know what comes up for you. What do you think your younger self would think of Where you are now and all that you've achieved.

Deborah Zucker: 43:07

Hmm. I love that question. I just, yeah, I, well, firstly, I just wanna say, yeah, just as you asked that, I just felt kind of my, my heart open and, just a softness, like almost a little tenderness. Mm-hmm. Beautiful question. I think she would be amazed, really amazed. I, yeah, I've come, I've evolved so much from my younger self and you know that early twenties version of me,'cause I was talking about her earlier, like she had no idea that this would be a calling, like I was not oriented towards becoming a doctor counselor or having like a big public presence or writing books? I mean, actually I thought maybe I might write a book, but not in this. Mm-hmm. You know, orientation or content. Yeah. So I think she would be pretty like jaw, jaw drop a bit mm-hmm. Of how life has unfolded and yeah. And just my journey to motherhood too, I think, I had my daughter when I was 45 and, yeah. And just, yeah, just what all that, how that unfolded of, meeting my husband. So I think there's so many aspects to my life that, yeah. She would probably, be both thrilled and surprised by,

Dr Nat Green: 44:23

oh, that's beautiful. I've got goosebumps when you talked about that. Yeah, that's,

Deborah Zucker: 44:28

yeah,

Dr Nat Green: 44:28

and I, I love that question because we often don't celebrate and look back at how far we've come and really acknowledge ourselves. And, I think that beautifully aligns with your nine keys. Mm-hmm. That acknowledging yourself Yes. That you are human, vulnerable, and that you matter. And I think that's one of the key takeaways I've gotten from talking to you. So thank you. Mm-hmm. Yeah. You've given us such a gift of, all this knowledge and these layers of wisdom, and I love that you've shared it from the heart and it really matters. So thank you so much. I know our listeners are gonna love this episode. So thank you so much.

Deborah Zucker: 45:21

I really, yeah. I appreciate the space you've held.

Dr Nat Green: 45:24

Thank you. Bye for now. Thank you for joining me in this episode of Growing Tall Poppies. It is my deepest hope that today's episode may have inspired and empowered you to step fully into your post-traumatic growth, so that you can have absolute clarity around who you are, what matters the most to you, and to assist you to release your negative emotions. And regulate your nervous system so you can fully thrive. New episodes are published every Tuesday, and I hope you'll continue to join us as we explore both the strategies and the personal qualities required to fully live a life of post-traumatic growth and to thrive. So if it feels aligned to you and really resonates, then I invite you to hit subscribe and it would mean the world to us. If you could share this episode with others who you feel may benefit too, you may also find me on Instagram at Growing Tall Poppies and Facebook, Dr. Natalie Green. Remember, every moment is an opportunity to look for the lessons and to learn and increase your ability to live the life you desire and deserve. So for now, stay connected. Stay inspired. Stand tall like the tall poppy you are, and keep shining your light brightly in the world. Bye for now.