From Darkness to Light: Navigating Self Acceptance to Thrive After Trauma

In this deeply insightful and inspiring episode of Growing Tall Poppies, host Dr. Nat Green sits down with the incredible Malisa Hepner — spiritual coach, healer, and advocate for self-acceptance — to explore how trauma can become a gateway to transformation.

Malisa is an LCSW in Oklahoma, an author and podcast host of Emotionally Unavailable Podcast. She has overcome an extensive history of childhood trauma, only to get well into adulthood before realizing trauma's significant, lasting impact. She reached burnout in every area of her life and experienced profound darkness. Deciding to give healing one more chance, she began moving the pieces of her life. She quit her job, she started a podcast and opened a private practice. She is now teaching others how to rid themselves of shame and find unconditional love for themselves and each other.

Malisa shares her journey from childhood trauma to burnout and mental health crisis in adulthood. She delves into her turning point, finding solace in the 'Finding Peace Workbook,' and integrating creative projects and spirituality into her healing. They explore self-acceptance, the importance of authenticity for mental health professionals, and creating meaningful connections. Listen to learn how Malisa transformed her pain into purpose, becoming a beacon of hope and a guide for others seeking to embrace post-traumatic growth.

What if the very challenges you’ve faced could become the stepping stones to your greatest growth? 

Malisa shares her deeply personal journey of overcoming mental health struggles, peeling back layers of conditioning, and finding her true identity beyond labels and limitations. With warmth and wisdom, she reveals how reconnecting with spirituality, rewriting your inner narrative, and allowing self-acceptance can shift the trajectory of healing.

Together, Natalie and Malisa discuss:
 ✨ Why self-acceptance is the foundation of post-traumatic growth
 ✨ How identity, purpose, and spirituality are interwoven in healing
 ✨ Practical ways to reclaim your inner voice and reset your path
 ✨ Moving beyond survival mode into true thriving
 ✨ Breaking free from old mental health narratives and writing your own story

Whether you’re navigating life after trauma, seeking deeper meaning, or wanting to support others on their growth journey, this episode will leave you uplifted, empowered, and ready to embrace your authentic self.

📘 Malisa also shares her powerful Identity Workbook — a practical tool to help you connect with who you truly are.

Connect with Malisa:-
linktr.ee/Mdhepner

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Facebook

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Intro and Outro music: Inspired Ambient by Playsound.

Disclaimer: This podcast is intended for educational purposes only. It is not intended to be deemed or treated as psychological treatment or to replace the need for psychological treatment.

Transcript

Dr Nat Green: 0:01

Welcome to the Growing Tall Poppies Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Nat Green, and I'm so excited to have you join me as we discuss what it means to navigate your way through post-traumatic growth and not just survive, but to thrive after trauma. Through our podcast, we will explore ways for you to create a life filled with greater purpose, self-awareness, and a deep inner peace. Through integrating the many years of knowledge and professional experience, as well as the wisdom of those who have experienced trauma firsthand. We'll combine psychology accelerated approaches. Coaching and personal experience to assist you, to learn, to grow and to thrive. I hope to empower you to create deeper awareness and understanding and stronger connections with yourself and with others, whilst also paving the way for those who have experienced trauma and adversity to reduce their suffering and become the very best versions of themselves. In order to thrive. Thank you so much for joining me on today's episode. I'm super excited and grateful today to bring you our next guest on the Growing Tall Poppies podcast. It's my absolute pleasure to welcome an amazing lady. She has experienced considerable trauma and adversity throughout her life, and has so generously agreed to come and chat about her professional and personal experience and share her wisdom with us. So let me start by welcoming Hepner. Malisa is an LCSW in Oklahoma. An author and podcast host of Emotionally Unavailable podcast. And let me tell you, it is an amazing podcast, so you should definitely check it out. And she overcame an extensive history of childhood trauma only to get well into adulthood before realizing trauma's, significant lasting impact. She reached burnout in every area of her life and experienced profound darkness deciding to give healing one more chance. She began moving the pieces of her life. She quit her job. She started a podcast and opened a private practice, and she's now teaching others how to rid themselves of shame and find unconditional love for themselves and each other. And I'm very excited to welcome her here today. So welcome, Malisa.

Malisa Hepner: 2:48

Thank you. I'm really excited to be here. I love the name of your show so much.

Dr Nat Green: 2:54

Thank you. It's funny because I have guests from a number of different countries on and they always say, what's a tall poppy? We don't use that term here. And, and all different things everywhere. I know.

Malisa Hepner: 3:06

Yeah. I didn't know. It wasn't until I had Lisa Kirkman from Australia on my show and she taught me about like Australians tall Poppy syndrome. So I was like, oh my God, I love it.

Dr Nat Green: 3:22

So I'm excited'cause you are definitely a tall poppy and we wanna make sure people like you and the other amazing guests on our podcast continue to grow and shine their light in the world because we need more of you. Thank you. So can we start with you giving us just a brief introduction on top of what I've already said of who you are and what you do in the world?

Malisa Hepner: 3:48

Yeah. I guess the easiest way to say it is. Well, some days I'm still trying to figure out what that is, but I think I'm I, I love to, to have my show because, well, I'm a Gemini and we love to talk. And, um, I think for, I would say most of my life, I felt silenced. I mean, I truly was as a child, and I think anyone in my generation or older was because of the type of programming that we received. Most of us were raised to believe that the comfort of others, it should be the priority and never our own comfort. And so I think understanding that and unraveling all of this unconscious shame that I was just. Filled with and self-hatred that I would've never seen because I was the person walking around going, you gotta love yourself. You gotta love yourself. I love myself because I was okay with certain aspects of myself. I think that I'm just kind of at a place where I'm really, really locked into my purpose on this earth. I, I was kind of lucky, I say this a lot because I, when I was in college, I knew exactly why I was there because since I was like four years old, I had this knowing, which I'm just now feeling even more confident to speak on because I would be like, well, I felt like I knew, or, water it down.

Dr Nat Green: 5:16

Yeah, of course. But

Malisa Hepner: 5:17

truly I had a knowing that the things I was experiencing was going to impact the way I move in the world positively, and that my story was going to help others. So that's kind of what I'm doing is living in my purpose and just finding new ways to connect with other humans and show them that there is a better way and that there is profound light on the other side of darkness.

Dr Nat Green: 5:47

Oh, thank you for sharing. I love that so much. There's so much of what you said that, yeah, I'd love to unpack. Firstly, I'm a Gemini as well, so

Malisa Hepner: 5:57

Oh, fellow Gemini. I love it. I love it. You get it, honey. That's why you were having tech issues.'cause Mercury's in retrograde and we have a lot of Mercury.

Dr Nat Green: 6:07

Oh, we'll share the blame on that one. Yeah. So I noticed that you said that you just had this knowing inside of you that you just knew. That regardless of what you were going through, you were born to live your purpose and you were gonna do something with everything you'd gone through.

Malisa Hepner: 6:27

Mm-hmm.

Dr Nat Green: 6:28

And the other thing is, so you are a social worker. And I'm a clinical psychologist background and is so interesting. And most of the people I interview are professionals who are helping professionals. And isn't it interesting that we are taught that we can't show the real part of ourselves. We have to be this professional on this pedestal and everything has to be fine. Mm-hmm. And yet, what you and I are born to do is, is to be who we really are. Be true, be authentic, and share that to guide others in the world and let them know that you can go through all sorts of shit, but you can also be okay.

Malisa Hepner: 7:16

Absolutely. I feel like that's probably the reason so many mental health professionals are burned out at high rates is not just because we're carrying other people's weight. It is because we're having to show up inauthentically and, recite instead of connect. And I was, if I'm being a hundred percent honest, because of the code of ethics around, you know, my LCSW, I was terrified to start a private practice because I didn't want to phone it in. But I felt like that's what the expectation is, that I can sit here and I am the professional and I, and you know, I just didn't wanna do that. And whenever I quit that, my school counseling job and started my podcast, I made a commitment. Me and me. That's who you're getting. And I have told every one of my clients. When I meet them, like it is not my credentials that make me a phenomenal therapist. It is the fact that I have done this work myself, and I am so full of self and the knowing very intimate details of myself, that now when other people talk, I can hear their shame and pain and fear and blame and doubt and self-hatred. And that is only from knowing myself so well. And I think I felt really lucky too because I had this whole spiritual awakening during my healing at the beginning of it. And as I was I would say actually, like I, I was having more spiritual awakenings than I was emotional healing at first. Hmm. But the combination of the two has really allowed me to I guess it's like what we preach, like the more love and compassion you can offer to yourself. For being so messy, the more you can offer that to anybody else. And so I really do connect on this very personal level. I let them know, look, I'm gonna vape in session. I'm gonna cuss, I'm going to share personal details of my life, because that's the way I've always done it. I, I hear people be like, every time I say something, then they have to say, well, in my life. And that used to freak me out. I'd be like, oh, people don't like that. That's just the way, like, that's the only way I know how to relate to others, you know? Mm-hmm. Um, and so I let them know, you're, you're, I'm gonna self disclose a lot. It's not like I'm gonna tell them in real time, I'm fighting with my husband. You know what I mean? Yeah. But like, I'm gonna let them know. Like, I get that. And for me, it's been a very beautiful experience because they, make me love being a therapist because watching them reach this level of peace that I have also found, man, what a life that I get to like, watch them evolve and grow and transform. And I'll just go back to like, yeah. Because I, I am sitting in alignment with exactly who I am and what I'm supposed to be doing.

Dr Nat Green: 10:18

And I can see that, and even as you were saying that you, it's, you embrace it and embellish that whole thing. You are walking your talk and I love that so much. And, and I honestly believe that we all should be doing that, as you said, within the code of ethics and with good boundaries. Not sharing, you know, significant things that Right. Don't feel okay. But more to get that deep connection with our clients. Mm-hmm. So they get that. We get it. Yeah. Instead of us carrying this shame. I know I've done it for so long myself, and it all switched when I thought stuff this, you need to be real. Yeah. We need to show up when we let go of that shame.

Malisa Hepner: 11:06

Mm-hmm. And

Dr Nat Green: 11:07

we can say, no, I get it at a deep level because I've been there and I've done the work.

Malisa Hepner: 11:17

Mm-hmm. And we

Dr Nat Green: 11:18

give them hope. I think that you can get through this.

Malisa Hepner: 11:23

Yeah. Because I'm also really quick to be like, especially if I'm talking to someone who's having relationship issues, I'm very fast to be like, well, I was the psycho in my relationship. So as somebody who used to do this, let me tell you what my perspective was. Because victim consciousness was not anywhere on my radar. Okay. I actually created this identity of no victimhood, right? Like just very masculine energy. And certainly didn't realize that I had created a real victimization within myself. In the way that I viewed all of my interactions and even just where I felt like I fit in people's lives. Mm-hmm. Um, and so, you know, I'm, when a professional and don't like, underestimate the power in somebody who is viewing you as an authority in this moment, getting down to the earth with them and saying I mean, I'm a psycho formally, so let me just give you a little perspective. There is power in that and the connection that happens around that level of truth and vulnerability. It's it's unmatched. Like no wonder people's lives are transforming because all it takes is someone else saying, I see you, I hear you. I'll hold you in this. Like no judgment.'cause they know absolutely. I'm not judging nothing, you know, like, I get it, I get it. And I'm honest that it's not like I'm anywhere near perfect today. Like I'm still cussing people out when I get too upset. You know what I mean? Like, I'm still doing stuff that I did as, as this former version of myself who, you know, that's been the biggest journey for me is understanding nothing in that way is gonna change that significantly. Yes it is. Because there was all these internal shifts and I have a lot of tools at my disposal now. So like, yeah, I don't act like a psycho all the time unless you ask my husband, But like. It happens. And I'm really okay with that. I don't want to do that. It's not like I'm condoning bad behavior, but I also know this is my cross to bear is that I'm, I have some reactivity still left in me, but I'm also really excited to be able to hold this fire that I found. And there's times when that fire is beneficial. I'm a fierce advocate, so I have to be fiery and it's not always going to be used correctly. And that's just me as a human, you know?

Dr Nat Green: 13:52

Yes. And I think that being willing to share our own humanity is one of our greatest gifts. That we are real, we are open and we get it. And that is what makes the difference to your clients. Yes. To our clients. So tell me, um. When I introduced you, we talked about how you had done all the work and yet you still felt like nothing was changing. And then tell me about that revelation of what happened when you realized, I have to try one more time. What was happening then?

Malisa Hepner: 14:33

After I quit my job and I started my podcast and then work was over.'cause I was working in a school. So, um, after the end of that school year, I was just like, I'm not doing that anymore. Mm-hmm. Um, on my show, I uh, thank you for being a Gemini.'cause you're gonna understand how it's very hard to abbreviate stories, so I'm not going to,

Dr Nat Green: 14:55

Just give us the whole thing.

Malisa Hepner: 14:56

Okay. So I'm on Facebook and I'm just being bored looking on Facebook, and I see on the people you may know a girl. And I didn't know exactly who she was, so I looked to see who our mutual friend was and I figured, oh, okay. I think this is someone my husband's related to because I had just accepted a friend request from her brother. Something was very loud in me and said, go look. And so I was looking at her page and her only public post was about her own mental health journey and my show's called Emotionally Unavailable and I was, you know how hard it is in the beginning to get guests. Oh yeah. Um, and so I reached out and I was like, I have a feeling you have a story I need to hear. Turns out she was a social worker in another state. Wow. Having gone through her own healing journey, working with this phenomenal social worker who wrote a book and developed a program called Finding Peace. And his book is the Finding Peace Workbook. And the reason this book, and I'm so serious, like this guy has my loyalty for life because I will tell everyone,'cause I'm not gonna take the credit for myself. This book changed my life. Okay. But the reason it changed my life really is because it breaks shame down into different archetypes and it, there's some somatic work woven in there too. Because I started breaking down the narratives that were being spoken in my head. Mm-hmm. And that was the crux of all of my problems. I thought truly, I thought I was becoming schizophrenic, like other members of my family because the self-talk was so loud. I. Do not for one minute believe it was dissociative identity. I believe it was my self-talk, and it was these different archetypes coming out because it was nothing I could really identify except for like, you're a loser. You're the, like, your kids are better off without you. That was easy to pinpoint. But it wasn't until she introduced just a little bit of information on the show that I was like, huh, my subconscious allowed some of those narratives to slow enough to where I could see like, oh, you're right. This is my royal, this is my judge, this is my this, you know, like every single thought I had. Throughout the day because I was a huge overthinker and I was, what I know now is that I was intellectualizing and analyzing every single one of the experiences in my life with zero idea of how to experience a feeling. Mm. I didn't know how to feel and it sounds so crazy, but that's the work that now I know this is all of us. And so, yeah. Um, that book changed my life and then I had her on again and I was having like a really rough day. So she like basically just played therapist with me and went through the whole process of find there, finding peace method with me. My, and I don't know, that was the jumpstart for everything because. It gave me back control, and I started to realize, oh, okay, I'm just not in my heart. I gotta get in my heart. I gotta learn how to feel stuff. And once I got control over my brain, that was it. I, there's no looking back. I, and now I have full control. There's things that come up, like I, I'm really open about the fact that I have PMDD. So every cycle, yeah, I ovulate and then three days later, up until I start. So we're looking at 10, 11 days of it. It gets worse gradually every day, and that will cause some overthinking. I don't freak out about it anymore. Mm-hmm. I'll be like, oh, why is that coming up? Or there are days that I'm like, I don't have time for this. We're not doing this. I try not to be dismissive of myself, but, you know, it happens. But like, yeah, that truly, that is, that was the difference. It gave me everything I needed. And then of course, honestly, I, I have to say, I guess really I believe my show saved me too because I, the conversations, first of all, for the first time in my life I was connecting with everyone on this really intimate level, whereas before, and I feel like this is more women than men. Mm-hmm. Um, were really programmed to socialize and connect through like gossip and complaining. And that was. All of my relationships, all of them, every one of them. That's how we connected. We just complained talked about other people behind their back, you know, things like that. And so, you know, learning what it felt like to get to go deep with people. I mean, it really just opened me up. And that had been something I was so afraid of forever, was being vulnerable. I mean, and that's, I remember how many times on my show I would start to like, say something and that, you know, that feeling where I'm like, oh, it's scary. And I it so it feels like embarrassment. And so like I'll always say like, oh, I'm having a thing about telling this, but I'm gonna do it anyway. You know, I'm so open and real on there in a way that. Every day. Like, I'm growing still because I find new things that like, are hard to be vulnerable about, you know? Yeah. But yeah, that's, I mean, if I were gonna say anything, I always say it's that book. I mean, and Jenny, hi Jenny, I love you. But like the book I, Troy Love is the person who wrote it, and it just it came along at the exact time I needed it to,

Dr Nat Green: 20:16

oh, I'm gonna put that in the show notes. So it was Finding Peace,

Malisa Hepner: 20:20

the Finding Peace Workbook. And then, I mean, he has a whole website and stuff that you can purchase the Finding Peace course off of and things like that. I personally didn't need that because this was the last shift I really needed, because I could learn to regulate my body. I didn't know how to get outta my brain, you know?

Dr Nat Green: 20:37

Oh, I know exactly what you mean as far as we intellectualize it. And after going through trauma or having. Lots and lots of it. We shut down at least one of our three brains. The head, the heart, the gut, and usually it's the heart. Brain.'cause it's too painful to feel. And yes, having you express that so beautifully and say, no, I knew that I needed to feel, gosh, doesn't it make a difference? It's like this foreign thing. It's like, oh, this is new. Oh, and then that vulnerability shame comes in when you start to express things. But I'm so pleased that you kept going and you have used your show to help other people do that as well. That's amazing.

Malisa Hepner: 21:24

Thank you.

Dr Nat Green: 21:25

Love it. So when you look at all the things that you've been through, like lots of childhood trauma, what do you think the key things for you were as far as the trauma and the lessons from that trauma?

Malisa Hepner: 21:47

Like in hindsight?

Dr Nat Green: 21:49

Yeah.

Malisa Hepner: 21:50

Yeah. Hmm. Good question. No one's ever asked that. Okay. So I'm gonna answer in the way that I think you mean, and if not just course correct. Okay.

Dr Nat Green: 22:04

All good. You answer it how you like, because I love to ask this. It's not normally how I would ask it, but see what comes out. I love that. Yeah.

Malisa Hepner: 22:13

I think for me in this moment, right here, right now mm-hmm. Looking back at all of that, it's, see this is such a good question'cause I'm feeling emotional, so it's done something. I think I'm so open and compassionate. About my experiences and my caregivers experiences being where I am now and recognizing the humanity in myself, which allows me to connect to the humanity, not just like with myself or other people, but even though all of, well, most of my family is gone, but I connect to their humanity even now. And so I think I really have to say like, I know it was all for a purpose, and I don't like to say things like that because I used to get really triggered when people offered, as a platitude, everything happens for a reason. Oh, okay. And so if me saying that triggers anyone, I, I'm sitting with you in that, but just hold on for a second because what I'm saying is. I'm grateful for the profound darkness that I found myself in because you can't ever reach the level of peace that I have found if you haven't had an equivalent amount of dark. So looking back, I think I don't think that the way those experiences shaped me is any different than anybody else on this earth. I think we come to our wounding a little bit differently, but I don't think we're that different and I see far more similarities between myself and every other human on this planet. Then I do difference and it took a little while and some paradigm shifting. Mm-hmm. To see like we truly are just projecting our own reality. And also mirrors for one another, and feeling that my purpose on this earth is to bring the light into the lives of people who are hurting and show them how to find their own light. Like I'm holding a flashlight for you right now. Mm-hmm. While you figure out how to work yours, you know? Yeah. And so I really feel like, it doesn't require the level of big T trauma that I experienced to. End up with the exact same wounding every one of us knows betrayal. I, I believe that the biggest betrayal that any of us face is the first time the mask of a parent falls off and we see they're not superhuman. Mm-hmm. And it's the first time that you're shaken to your core. You can't feel safe if this person can't save you from a bank robber or lift a car off of you when you realize they're not this superhero that you created. With your filter. Yeah. Them to be, it's the scariest thing on earth. We all know betrayal. We all know neglect because no one, and I will stand by those words. No one in my generation or older received an ounce of education about how to sit with disappointment that nobody's ever walked us through really pivotal emotional, developmental milestones. No one. So you have a neglect wound that's just as big as mine. We all have abandonment wounds because we were taught to self abandon. So maybe your parents never left you, but they sure taught you how to self abandon. So I would venture to say that less Gen Z has received that type of parenting because we've been given a lot better information. But. There's plenty of us out there who are willing to say, I did that to my kids too. I'm a, I'm like a Xennial. I'm only like the last three months of Gen X and I'm a, you know, a, an elder millennial. But like that, that oldest child of mine, he received the same stuff I got. Was I beating him? No, but was I criticizing him to death? Yes. Mm-hmm. Yes. You know, and and more importantly, viewed him as a direct extension and reflection of myself. So what was I teaching him to care more about appearance and the comfort of others than anything that he needed. So I really believe that we are all the same. And when we can understand that life it's infinite. It's so good. It's better because, you know, like it's scary to feel so much opposition with everyone else. And now I just feel so much connection. I'm just waiting for people to kind of like join me, you know? Mm-hmm.

Dr Nat Green: 27:18

That was a great, great answer to the question. Well, thank you. I was like, this is what I got, baby. If it's not good, tell

Malisa Hepner: 27:25

me. I'll, I'll say, you know, we can, we can phrase it a different way.

Dr Nat Green: 27:28

No, no. We want you raw and real and, and sharing things. So you talked about how you definitely don't like to say to people, everything happens for a reason. And I so hear you on that. But isn't it interesting that after we've been through the trauma and come done all the work, didn't just wake up one day and it was fixed, done the work and continue to do the work and process things that we can start to see that there are gifts in what we've been through. So yes. Okay. It didn't happen for a reason, but it's taught us a lot.

Malisa Hepner: 28:11

Yeah.

Dr Nat Green: 28:12

Yeah.'cause we've chosen to turn that around in whatever way we choose. We could have ignored it of course. Right. That's what people do and won't get the lessons right. Yeah. You know, and I'm sure No, absolutely.

Malisa Hepner: 28:27

And I think, even if it's not necessarily like, um, everything happens for a reason or you can't like pinpoint,'cause I personally can kind of see how all the pieces came together, you know? But if you're not there, surely you can understand that like, like I wouldn't be a healer if I hadn't had to heal myself, and so I'm grateful to have learned things the hard way even. Mm-hmm. Because. It took scraping down to the rawest levels of who I was to be able to connect so beautifully with others and to see like, what does light me up and what does peace feel like? But if you don't have anything to compare it to, like it's, it's hard to go, oh, this is good or this isn't good. And I think too, this is almost an addition to what I said before, but I think too that just us learning how to trust ourselves and our intuition, it really kind of takes that unraveling of. This was, and this is, and the gratitude in the middle, because now I, I am connecting with myself so differently that, I mean, this part for me at least, is still, um, a little tricky and something I still have to work really hard on is that connection to self, to where like, I can trust myself to make decisions. Because man, that before it was like everything, every single choice, every choice, and I mean the smallest choice felt like there's a very right choice and a very wrong choice. And the right one would lead to reward and the. Wrong one would be Eternal damnation. And I mean that so hard, like even I've said this before, but potty training, my oldest child, I was like, if I don't do this right, he's gonna be Jeffrey Dahmer. I just know it, like everything felt so heavy and I just didn't trust myself. And that's a, that's a byproduct of being told children are to be seen and not heard. Yes. And rub some dirt on it and walk it off. When you're left to kind of figure stuff out on your own, in your little baby brain and you're using this little filter with very limited information mm-hmm. That's the kind of stuff that you figure out on your own and you're so used to being compliant that if someone's not telling you how to do something, you can't figure it out on your own. So I, again, like figuring that part out has brought so much gratitude too that I don't know. Also, I think that anybody who has experienced suicidal ideation. To the level that I did where I actually created a plan. Or even without a plan. When you get to a place where you're happy to be alive, you're not just making it, you're like living in your peace and in your truth and in your abundance. I can't help but be grateful for the now, but for all of that too. Because you can't create a life that you're in love with, without knowing what you're not in love with, you know?

Dr Nat Green: 31:44

Yes. So really coming from that, you know, it's that pleasure and pain. You really need to feel the pain and move away from the pain. Mm-hmm. To know what you're moving towards. Yes. Yeah. So would it be okay to share, and you might say, no, I don't wanna go back there. We've talked about it a bit more about that time of really severe darkness. Would that be okay?

Malisa Hepner: 32:09

Yeah, that's fine.

Dr Nat Green: 32:10

Yeah.

Malisa Hepner: 32:11

Okay. So what happened? I had had depression off and on my whole life. It was sneaky. It was weird. It's hard to describe Prior to this really bad time, I think it was a normal thing, especially for somebody with C-P-T-S-D, right? Mm-hmm. Um, I, I was just really reactive and lived in survival mode 24 7. But when this happened, I had been in a job role that, and it wasn't like because I was working with kids, it was just the buildings I was in. Just toxic people, right? Yeah. It was sucking the life out of me. Mm-hmm. Because number one, if you work in education, you get no validation. Okay?

Dr Nat Green: 32:52

Mm-hmm.

Malisa Hepner: 32:53

Yes. I didn't know how to exist or feel pride or love for myself unless someone else was telling me I should. So I relied heavily on external validation. Mm-hmm. So I wasn't getting any, and that was rule number one. Like I need to be told I'm doing a good job every now and then, my God. So that really started it. And I was in education a total of seven years. Um, I still work and have always very part-time doing bereavement work in hospice, but it's from home. I just make phone calls and do some other stuff. But, I had left hospice full time to go into education because I got, I, it just got to where like I was getting older and I didn't really feel safe going into stranger's homes. I'd seen too much at that point, you know, and I was like I don't wanna do this anymore. Love the work. Did not enjoy like, environmental stuff, environment. So I moved into education. It was probably the only role I've ever done professionally that I felt so stupid in. I didn't have a single clue what I was doing. Um, and I was getting no, no help and just the things that I felt I needed to thrive in a work environment. And I was surrounded by a bunch of toxic women. Mm-hmm. And women are mean when they're unhealed. Okay. So it was a lot of drama that I didn't wanna be in, you know, mm-hmm. Fast forward those last couple of years. I shouldn't have stayed the last year that I was there. Whenever I actually like hit the pinnacle of the mental health crisis. I should have left after the year prior, but I was scared. I wanted to do all the things I'm doing now the year prior, but I was just scared. So I got really uncomfortable. I'm kind of a person who has to like get really discontent to move. Yes. So honestly it was just. Shame. Always telling. Like, because I wasn't perfect is what I understand now.'cause I was making mistakes. Like, and I, it just literally got to a place where I felt like the children were better off without me before I would tell myself a messed up mom is better than no mom. Whenever I would have like struggles because I lost my mom and I, it was easy to work through that. Like, well, your kids need you. But it got to where I felt like I was the center of all of their hurt and pain and struggles. And it was really just because I, my reactivity I carried so much shame over how reactive I was. And I was especially reactive with my children because they triggered my shame. So it could be little things like, um. Well, my youngest is my only daughter, but when she's truly gotten the worst version of me up until now. Because I just, I was so tired of life and felt not enough and too much all at the same time. Yeah. Felt like I had the weight of the world on my shoulders alone to, and nobody to help me carry it. And felt at my core, fundamentally unlovable. Okay. I think we're all struggling with those narratives, but, Hmm. So if something happened with one of my kids and they're crying, I would be so dismissive because I didn't like the feelings that were coming up in me. And any feelings would start all of the narratives up here. And it was just things like, um. You don't even know how to take care of your kid. Like, you're not even like, go hug your kid. They need you. And then the other, well, if they hadn't done this, then I wouldn't have done this. You know, and it was a bunch of back and forth. So honestly, it was the noise in my head that was just driving me crazy. I was driving myself crazy, victimizing myself by believing that, uh, I loved everyone around me more than they loved me. Mm-hmm. Um, that pretty much anyone could. I could come or go in anybody's lives. I felt important to people, but I felt like I was only in their life to hear them and hold them. Then I, I started unraveling the fact that I created that on purpose to keep myself safe. I surrounded myself with a bunch of emotionally unavailable people to keep myself safe. I didn't wanna talk about me. If they asked, I'd get mad. I'd change the subject. They could only ask in a very certain way. And I believed that to be okay, appropriate to be like, shouldn't have said that, but it was just that kind of reactivity, just all the time. Just just a constant like verbal vomit. And then especially like as a wife, like this is my number one area of struggle is. Intimate relationships. Mm-hmm. Um, now it's like he's just my safe person, so I just kind of take everything out on him and it doesn't look anything the way it used to. But, you know, I don't feel shame over it. I'm aware of it and I work on it, but like before it was bad. And so I would look at him and I would see the pain on his face for my behavior, and it would just reinforce that narrative of like, everyone in your life at this point would really be better off if you weren't here. Like they were the reasons I held on at other points in my life, and now it was them that made me feel like they weren't doing this. This was all myself, but it was my relationship with them. That would make me feel like it's probably just time to quit this. Like, life really sucks. Nothing's really going your way. I felt stuck too. Yeah. I was very terrified because I. And this is something I still work through. You know, I got to a place where my income was decent and like I bought. My dream car on my own. Like I did, you know, like I used my own credit. I had repaired my credit. I mean, I had had so many financial issues in the past. I was terrified to let the security of that income level go and it, I've worked through my worth being tied to income or what I can and can't provide for my children, you know? But at the time it was like, you can't, you gotta have something very secure lined up and what is there secure, lined up that, to go from where I was to what I'm doing now, nothing. I mean, it took a leap of faith, yeah. Um, but that was really, those were the biggest issues is I was scared to leave the job. I knew that was killing me and I was just really mean to myself. I, and just constantly telling myself how bad I was at being a human.

Dr Nat Green: 39:26

Definitely a dark time. In your life? Very

Malisa Hepner: 39:31

dark. I mean, that was all I thought about from the time I went to sleep. The time I woke up, I, all I thought about was how much I hated my life.

Dr Nat Green: 39:37

That's a huge burden to carry.

Malisa Hepner: 39:40

It was so heavy. It was so heavy. I felt the weight of it.

Dr Nat Green: 39:43

So carrying all of that, and then that was the time where you did find that around the peace and the archetypes, the shame archetypes mm-hmm. Was all mm-hmm. Following that, and that's what helped you move out of it.

Malisa Hepner: 39:56

Yeah. So I, well so, um, the pinnacle of the mental health crisis was October of 2023. I kind of white knuckled after that into the holiday season. And then January, I was like, what am I going to do? I know I'm no longer going to do this, but I don't know how I'm gonna get where I'm trying to go. So I actually kind of started doing creative projects. I opened a little online store that never sells a darn thing. I'm hoping that'll change. But I started designing little Zodiac t-shirts for fun. They were hilarious to me. And so I literally just started doing creative things that I didn't know I had the potential to do. I had no idea that I had any ounce of creativity, um, because I just never felt artistic. I can sing I can kind of dance, but like artsy stuff. And I've always been a good writer, but like, I just didn't feel like I could art, yeah. So I just started doing creative stuff and then someone I knew had beautiful children's stories written, but. Didn't wanna, like, they were very intimidated of the process of looking for an illustrator. Mm-hmm. And I was like, honey, you could, they like, there's all these options, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So I decided to show her it was possible by taking a schoolwide lesson that I had created on bullying. It was the dumbest little story, I swear. And turn it into a children's book and used AI to do the illustrations. Mm-hmm. And I self-published it. I did all the things all by myself to show her, and then it just sparked and I just kept. Because I thought the story itself was really stupid. And'cause it really was geared towards educators, like the type of stuff we have to talk to kids about. Yeah. But I wanted to show people like that you can do this. So I, I kept going and that, that helped because I could get into a flow state. So from January to May, it was creative projects that I could pop. I mean, there was wailing by me at least three hours every single day.'cause I just was full of just pain and I didn't know what to do with it. So I would put my little noise canceling headphones in, listen to the worst, most depressing playlist while working, singing my heart out, crying all the time and just like working, just working all the time. Just trying to figure out like, what are things that I can do that's. Spark any kind of light in me. And it was really touch and go. I knew I wasn't gonna die, but I also didn't know how I was gonna live. I was still really depressed. And it was a minute by minute, like survival strategy. But then I started my podcast at the end, like my first episode aired on April 29th, which is actually the day. So I, that's the day that my mom died, is April 29th. Mm-hmm. And so I try, if I'm gonna do a big project to do it on that day, my very first book Owning My Crazy, where it's some of my story I release that on that anniversary too. So I, I really try to stick to that. It makes me feel good, you know? Yay. And it's a connection point with her. But, um, I did that and it just, the joy that I was getting from it, and I had a vision and I just went after it, you know? Mm-hmm. And then thank God, because now like I've met all these people who have enriched my life and. That's really kind of how it was. It was just like white knuckle in it until I got the information that set me free.

Dr Nat Green: 43:25

That's fabulous. And I mean, knowing what we know about the brain, of course that opening it up for that creativity helped you process in a different way and use different part of your brain that was actually allowed to unlock, which is why it was that almost obsessive hours a day of allowing that free flow and that free flow of emotions.

Malisa Hepner: 43:49

Yes.

Dr Nat Green: 43:50

Creativity. Very powerful.

Malisa Hepner: 43:52

Yeah, it was amazing. It really was. Even though I'd be crying really hard over a frustration,'cause I had zero coping skills, that was the other thing. Zero. Every little minor inconvenience was a really big deal in my world.

Dr Nat Green: 44:05

Mm. Yeah. And look how far you've come when you look back to those days and really, you know, what'd you say it was in 2023? Not that long ago.

Malisa Hepner: 44:17

No, not that long ago at all.

Dr Nat Green: 44:19

You've come so far. So would you say there's any specific qualities or personal attributes that you see as being key to move from trauma into post-traumatic growth?

Malisa Hepner: 44:34

For me, um, it really happened. All the shifting made so much sense When I got really into doing these rituals around the New Moon and the full Moon, and for the first time ever I did an identity audit and said. This is you come up with this alter ego, this is who I wanna be, right? And up till then I had been doing a lot of future self journaling, trying to rewire my brain. Yeah. But not knowing how to experience feelings. So you know that it wasn't going well. Challenging. Yeah. It was not good. It wasn't good. But I could see on paper versus what I've been future self journaling about, pretty similar. Mm-hmm. And I had an epiphany. This was, this was kind of the first aha in the spiritual world for me. Mm-hmm. It felt very spiritual to, to feel this. But um, was, I'm writing down all these attributes and then you kind of see where the incongruence is. Like, why am I not already like that? What am I doing now that's preventing me from being that? And all of a sudden I realized I'm already. I'm this girl like, excuse my language, like I am a badass. Like I am this, I am that. What am I doing? Like why am I trying so hard to be somebody completely different? Like in my mind, the one thing I wasn't was calm and I thought to be or to, to have the life that I was dreaming of, that I had to be zen and like a monk, honey, the monks have no stress. They're out in the wild meditating and good for them. That's great. That's their path. But like I got lots of stress. Mm-hmm. And so, yeah, that was the beginning and the deepening of that understanding. Every time I get like the opportunity to understand that better where I've come to is the number one thing that we all need. Is acceptance of ourselves. Yes. So when you get to the place where you understand you are so good, exactly who you are. Like you don't need to be anyone different. Maybe you need to un become or unlearn a few things. Like we all do. We've all got some crappy programming from somewhere. Like, you know, that's fine, definitely. But like you don't have to shift your whole identity. And I keep hearing people talk about like, I'm trying to heal, I'm trying to heal, I'm trying to heal, or I'm trying to become the person I want to be. And I'm like, man, we're getting it. Wrong guys. There's not a destination, like when you sit and you get really comfortable with the fact that. You are so imperfect and you're gonna get a thousand things a day wrong and still be able to hold yourself and love yourself and look in the mirror and have so much respect for yourself. Admiration, even like the confidence that is born from this place of worthiness that I've never felt in my entire life is insane. Like my body image issues used to be so bad. Now that's been a process of like working on my relationship with my body. But man, when that switch flipped and I got to a place where I was like, who cares? Like I, oh my gosh. Like, you know, I fixed my hair a little bit. I'm like, oh my God, I'm looking so good. And it's just, wow. It's the feeling that you, you bring from inside out where you know. Like the world needs you and there's not another me on this entire planet, even though we're all like connected and so much alike. I am the one piece of this puzzle. There's not another piece that's gonna fit just like me. And just understanding, like I saw, I wish I could remember who I saw this from on Instagram yesterday. They said it the most beautiful way that I've ever seen it said. But it was just about like healing isn't about reaching anything. It's about sitting in your messiness, in your darkness, in your rudeness, in your reactivity, in the time you cussed at your kid, and just still sitting there and been like, shouldn't have done that. But how can I do it better? And just skip the shame. Skip the blame, skip all of that and just be like, Ooh, that wasn't good. That wasn't good. I am sorry. I've learned how to say that better. I do suck at it still a little bit because it, it's the worst feeling ever to like have to acknowledge it. And it's scary even to have vulnerable conversations like that. I'm still scared all the time to tell people the truth, like about whatever the thing is. I mean, it's not like everything, but there are still times every single day that I catch myself wanting to stop before I say something. I'm grateful for the opportunity to feel that like icky feeling.'cause it helps me connect to something in my body. But when we can get to a place where we literally just go, yeah, accountability isn't a cross. I don't have to crucify myself to hold myself accountable. I understand I wanna be a good human. I am a good human. I understand intimately what kindness is and what love is. I'm not going to try to hurt people. That's not my intention. This, I don't wanna be a bad human, but I am going to do things badly sometimes and as scary as it is for me to say this,'cause I know how it's received by some people, I don't care. I'm literally a hundred percent fine with the fact that I make a bajillion mistakes every day. And that I think is where we are all needing to get to.

Dr Nat Green: 50:29

Ugh. Absolutely beautiful. Honestly, you just went through so many layers of things there that we could talk for hours on this stuff. I love it. So one of the things that's really. There's a couple of things that stands out for me is a lot of my guests, in fact, nearly every guest I've had on talks about that journey from trauma to post-traumatic growth, that spirituality being vital. And I don't mean, you know, you found God or something like that. Right. Some people did and it's, it's about their Christianity, but others, it's that spiritual experience of something outside yourself, greater than you, whatever it is. Yes. Whatever it is, is different for everyone. That spiritual side of things, but also, I loved what you were saying about, which I see all the time, people trying to go back to who they used to be.

Malisa Hepner: 51:30

Yeah. And

Dr Nat Green: 51:31

you nailed it in that it's No, it's about, we're not gonna go back to who we used to be because who we used to be didn't have all the experiences and the learnings and the lessons and the gifts. That we now have. So it's about that self-acceptance mm-hmm. And self-awareness that you Yeah. Just said brilliantly that we're never gonna be perfect.'cause it's a, it's a never ending journey.

Malisa Hepner: 51:56

Yeah.

Dr Nat Green: 51:57

Well,

Malisa Hepner: 51:57

and it's hard sometimes when you get very spiritual, like I am like I'm, I'm like a. I use the word universe. Mm-hmm. For me, um, that just feels the best for me. Yeah. I do feel that's what gets me through the hard days.'Cause I feel like I'm a part of a blueprint that I do have a purpose, uh, and I feel fundamentally supported by this higher power that I call universe. Like, there's no one's waiting for me to make the wrong steps so they can punish me. You know what I mean? No one's trying to banish me with the outer darkness, whatever the words are. Mm-hmm. No one's doing that. I am here for a purpose and any spiritual forces are only here to help me achieve that purpose. I feel really in alignment with that purpose, but also, it's all what we make it to be. And yeah, I think, I think that we just. Own it, mm. Like. Owning all of it is so much easier than judging any of it. Because that's, do you know what I mean about the accountability cross that I'm talking about? Yes. Sometimes people don't, and I'm like, man, you must not see your perfectionist tendencies then because Exactly.

Dr Nat Green: 53:19

Share

Malisa Hepner: 53:20

that. Even healing, I would judge the healing. I'd be like, oh, you knew better so you should have da, da. And then, conversely, I used to mourn that I didn't have this information sooner. I was upset like all the time. Like I would've done things so differently. Of course, I would have, of course I would have. So would my parents. Mm-hmm. So would their parents. We didn't receive this generational trauma for no reason. Exactly. So, yeah, it feels all very integral and important and a part of what I'm supposed to do here. But yeah. The spirituality stuff really is big for me because of the perspective it gives me. Because I feel like, yes, there are truths, but then there are larger truths. So for me, leaning into the larger truths really keeps me more grounded. Because it's easy to take things personally, especially when you're so wounded, yes. And so I'll sit in my little wounding and let my feelings be hurt, and then as soon as I feel like we've processed that, then I just invite myself to understand that their stuff's about them. My stuff's about me. They didn't do that because of me, but I reacted this way because of me,

Dr Nat Green: 54:32

and I think having that capacity to acknowledge our wounding, but not. Share from our wounding. Mm-hmm. So we have healing and we acknowledge there's still wounds. There's wounds that we're gonna carry forever, but we can cover those wounds and come from a place that's really good and helpful and giving to others without coming from the gaping wound.

Malisa Hepner: 55:00

Absolutely. Mm-hmm. And that

Dr Nat Green: 55:02

as a, a professional, working with other people, social workers, psychologists, therapists, coach, whatever, whatever, it doesn't matter that showing up authentically being real for our clients is so important. But we do so not from our gaping wound. Mm-hmm. That is the healthy side of things that we need to be advocating for in the helping professionals because the way the mental health system is right now, it's not working.

Malisa Hepner: 55:41

I'm actually, I I, I've been putting my big girl pants on and I've been submitting to speak at mental health conferences. Ooh. And I've been doing it. I submitted for a very big conference. I feel like I'm going to hear back anytime because they asked for my resume today.'cause I had forgotten to attach it to the submission. I'm really hoping exciting, but what I'm trying to show people is the community implications from one person. Yes. Because what I tell my clients is when you change the world around you changes and the ripples, like my, the energy in my house completely changed when I changed, you know, of course. Nobody's walking on eggshells anymore.

Dr Nat Green: 56:21

No.

Malisa Hepner: 56:21

That, that alone changes the way they enter the world. And so. When we can see how we fixed ourselves and we extend that kindness to others. We learn how to release people that are no longer in our best interest, but from a place of love it. There's no drama. There's no drama. I will send you in peace. You may not even know, I may not even have a conversation with you. It just depends on the level of the relationship. Whatever it is. Absolutely. I will send you in peace because you are a human and you're just as valuable as I am, but people, places, things, experiences, I can have so much kindness and compassion because I give that to myself first. Yes. So I'm really trying to show the mental health community A, you're missing the mark. Okay? Mm-hmm. You got to heal yourself and then offer that healing to others. That's how we change the world. I've been hearing the phrase New Earth and I'm like, yes, I'm here for that. I, that's what I feel. I'm creating the change, the path forward. Maybe I'm not gonna see it in my lifetime, but I will know that I had a hand in that, because we have to heal ourselves first. We, most of us got into this field because of how codependent we were. Absolutely. And we wanted to save the world. Okay. And our self sacrifice, self sacrificing.

Dr Nat Green: 57:48

Absolutely. People pleasing. They're good girls that we always had to be. So,

Malisa Hepner: 57:53

exactly.

Dr Nat Green: 57:54

It's

Malisa Hepner: 57:54

classic. We took care of everyone in our family. Let's go take care of the mental health of the world too, honey. Yeah. Exactly. And so I, you know, I'm getting even more bold about like my approach with mental health professionals where I say like, baby, you are codependent. And so as we heal those things in ourselves, it's so much easier to heal others. You know, give, offer them the tools that you used and share your story. Let's change the way we're doing this because it's not just the lack of funding that's creating. And even if we could just freaking help our little emotionally unavailable society because we're all dismissing the needs and, and the wants and the love and the desire of others.'cause we don't know how to sit with our own discomfort.

Dr Nat Green: 58:42

Exactly. So, you know,

Malisa Hepner: 58:43

if we can work on those things within ourselves, you freely offer those to other people.'cause you know what it feels like to receive it. Mm-hmm. And so, yeah, I'm gonna come get, get some of my forgiveness. Please just understand what forgiveness really is. It's not, you know, and I'm, and I'm not. Talking about the major, major stuff that people go through, that's, you know, it's, it's on your timeline when you can release pain from your experiences. I just because of a medium I had on my show not that long ago, released some real pain around my narcissistic grandma that raised me. So, like it's a journey and it's gonna unfold the way it unfolds for each individual. But when you can get down to the core of who you are, love every ounce of it have unconditional positive regard for self, which sounds wild. It sounded wild to me before too, but it is true and it is honorable, and it is peaceful, and it is beautiful. It is abundant, it's flowing. You wanna share those things with other people? Definitely.

Dr Nat Green: 59:47

I've loved so much about what we've talked about today, but I do know that we've been chatting for a while. So as we move to wrapping this conversation up, where can our listeners find out more about you and find you online well,

Malisa Hepner: 1:00:03

I'm very active on Instagram@Malisa.Hepner. Uh, I have a website empoweredwithMalisahepner.org. I just released. Today or yesterday. My days are getting mixed up now. I did design this around Leo season in mind because I'm gonna start like with the astrological themes, but the workbook itself doesn't talk about astrology at all. But I'm now creating kind of like a monthly workbook. Mm-hmm. And this first one is called Safe to Be Seen. It's a self reclamation workbook about just like, uncovering some of the invisibility wounds. It's just an instant download. You can print it if you want to, but, um, there, it's, it's not like this huge workbook, but you could do this in an hour. It's just like getting you into a place of a better, like emotional hygiene. Mm-hmm. There's a little bit of shadow work, there's some mirror work, there's a few little things like that. I'm very excited about it. It's very affordable here. I don't know even if I like where it converts to for other countries, but, um, you know, for your listeners, if they. Want a copy, I'll be happy to send one for free.

Dr Nat Green: 1:01:11

Oh my goodness. That's amazing. What a generous offer. Thank you, Malisa. Absolutely. So I put that in the show notes and Oh, I'm super excited. I wanna go check everything you've let us know about today out and really, really excited. So thank you so much for coming on and sharing your story and your wisdom with us. I like to finish each episode with a question. Okay. What do you think your youngest self would think of who you've become and what you're doing now?

Malisa Hepner: 1:01:48

I don't think she'd be surprised at all. In fact, have you seen that trend? That was like, went to lunch with my younger self? Yes. I participated in it because I wasn't at first, but the author of that poem came on TikTok and was like, I wrote this poem in the book of poems. It's blown up. And they're not giving me credit. And so I was like, okay, I'm gonna do the trend and tag her and like, you know, give her the proper credit. And I was like, what am I gonna say though? And then, and what I felt in that moment was, ah, I recognized you. It was my higher self guiding me this whole time. And so I think my younger self and my highest self, well, they're one for one thing. But yeah, I don't think she's surprised. I think she's like, I recognize you. I knew I knew we would get here. I mean, I'm living the vision, I'm not monetarily yet. Don't play. I'm not, I'm not gonna pretend. Good that financially I'm where I wanna be. That's still a struggle. Entrepreneurship is real. But the life that I've designed for myself, it's the life I'm in love with. And I don't think she's surprised. I think she's like, I knew we could do it.

Dr Nat Green: 1:03:00

Yeah. And especially'cause at the very beginning of our conversation, you said you always knew

Malisa Hepner: 1:03:08

mm-hmm.

Dr Nat Green: 1:03:09

What you were going to do and that you were here to live your purpose. So here we are, full circle, all the stuff that you've been through and you are living your life on purpose.

Malisa Hepner: 1:03:21

Yeah.

Dr Nat Green: 1:03:22

You're amazing. I'm so, thank you. Grateful to have connected with you. It's been absolutely delightful and I'm sure I've had such a

Malisa Hepner: 1:03:30

good time too.

Dr Nat Green: 1:03:31

Oh, our listeners are gonna love this conversation. I hope so. Bye for now. Bye. Thank you for joining me in this episode of Growing Tall Poppies. It is my deepest hope that today's episode may have inspired and empowered you to step fully into your post-traumatic growth, so that you can have absolute clarity around who you are, what matters the most to you, and to assist you to release your negative emotions. And regulate your nervous system so you can fully thrive. New episodes are published every Tuesday, and I hope you'll continue to join us as we explore both the strategies and the personal qualities required to fully live a life of post-traumatic growth and to thrive. So if it feels aligned to you and really resonates, then I invite you to hit subscribe and it would mean the world to us. If you could share this episode with others who you feel may benefit too, you may also find me on Instagram at Growing Tall Poppies and Facebook, Dr. Natalie Green. Remember, every moment is an opportunity to look for the lessons and to learn and increase your ability to live the life you desire and deserve. So for now, stay connected. Stay inspired. Stand tall like the tall poppy you are, and keep shining your light brightly in the world. Bye for.