Growing Tall Poppies

The Predictive Brain: How Neuroscience Unlocks Healing After Trauma

• Dr Natalie Green • Season 2 • Episode 51

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In this transformative and enlightening episode of Growing Tall Poppies, Dr. Nat Green is joined by cognitive neuroscientist Dr. Irena O’Brien, founder of the Neuroscience School and host of The Neuroscience of Coaching Podcast (ranked in the top 10% globally!). Together, they explore how our brain's predictive nature is deeply shaped by past experiences — and how that impacts trauma, healing, and the ability to change.

They bridge the gap between neuroscience and lived experience—with Dr Irena making complex brain science accessible, empowering, and deeply human.

Dr. Irena breaks down complex neuroscience into relatable insights, showing how trauma imprints itself in the brain and how we can use neuroplasticity to create new, empowering responses. From brain-body communication to the power of diet, sleep, and exercise in overall health and mental wellness, this conversation is packed with practical tools and illuminating science.

If you've ever wondered why you react the way you do… or whether it’s truly possible to change, this episode offers both clarity and hope.

What You’ll Learn:

  • 🧠 How the brain predicts your thoughts, emotions, and behaviors based on past experiences
  • 🧬 Why the brain prioritizes survival over rational thinking — and how that ties into trauma
  • 💥 The role of interoceptive and exteroceptive sensations in emotional response
  • 🧘‍♀️ How lifestyle habits like sleep, diet, and exercise support brain health
  • 🌀 The concept of neuroplasticity and how it enables recovery and growth
  • 🔄 The science of rewiring your brain through neuroplasticity — even after trauma
  • ⏳ What happens when your brain’s predictions are wrong and how to change the response

Dr. Irena O’Brien specializes in translating cutting-edge neuroscience into practical tools for coaches, therapists, and individuals seeking transformation. 

This episode is a beautiful blend of science and soul, breaking down what post-traumatic growth looks like in the brain—and offering hope, clarity, and practical strategies for anyone who’s lived through adversity.

Whether you're a therapist, coach, or someone navigating life after trauma, you’ll walk away with grounded insights and actionable ways to support healing—starting with the brain and extending to every part of your life.

Connect with Dr. Irena O’Brien:
🌐 Neuroscience School 

FREE Upcoming webinar
🎧 The Neuroscience of Coaching Podcast

Linked In 

Free Resource:-

https://neuroscienceschool.com/ten-strategies/

FREE Upcoming webinar

If this episode resonates with you then I'd love for you to hit SUBSCRIBE so you can keep updated with each new episode as soon as it's released and we'd be most grateful if you would give us a RATING as well. You can also find me on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/drnatgreen/ or on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/DrNatalieGreen

Intro and Outro music: Inspired Ambient by Playsound.

Disclaimer: This podcast is intended for educational purposes only. It is not intended to be deemed or treated as psychological treatment or to replace the need for psychological treatment.

Dr Nat Green:

Welcome to the Growing Tall Poppies Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Nat Green, and I'm so excited to have you join me as we discuss what it means to navigate your way through post-traumatic growth and not just survive, but to thrive after trauma. Through our podcast, we will explore ways for you to create a life filled with greater purpose, self-awareness, and a deep inner peace. Through integrating the many years of knowledge and professional experience, as well as the wisdom of those who have experienced trauma firsthand. We'll combine psychology accelerated approaches. Coaching and personal experience to assist you, to learn, to grow and to thrive. I hope to empower you to create deeper awareness and understanding and stronger connections with yourself and with others, whilst also paving the way for those who have experienced trauma and adversity to reduce their suffering and become the very best versions of themselves. In order to thrive. Thank you so much for joining me on today's episode. I'm really excited today to bring you our next guest on the Growing Tall Poppies podcast. It's my absolute pleasure and privilege to welcome a wonderful lady. Let me introduce you to Dr. Irena O'Brien. Who is a cognitive neuroscientist with three decades of experience studying psychology and neuroscience. After an initial career as a chartered accountant, she transitioned to neuroscience, earning her PhD in psychology, and I'm gonna test my French here from the Université du Québec à Montréal her research involved brain imaging and electrophysiological studies, and she further expanded her expertise through a postdoctoral fellowship at McGill University Center for Language, mind and Brain. Dr. Irena founded the Neuroscience School, a program aimed at providing coaches and health professionals with practical evidence-based neuroscience tools. She's extremely committed to addressing misinformation by simplifying complex neuroscientific concepts for wider accessibility. She's particularly passionate about how lifestyle choices affect brain health, mood, and cognitive function, especially as we age and additionally. I'm very excited to share that her neuroscience of coaching podcast now ranks amongst the top 10% of podcasts worldwide. So she's doing amazing things, and this really reflects her impact and her reach in this field. So with no further ado, welcome Irena. It's so great to have you here.

Dr Irena O'Brien:

Thank you for inviting me. Nat. Should I call you Nat or Dr. Nat?

Dr Nat Green:

Nat is fine. And I know we talked a little while ago and you are happy for me to call you Irena rather than our doctor.

Dr Irena O'Brien:

Yeah. I'm still shocked when people call me doctor. It hasn't sunk in.

Dr Nat Green:

No, it still feels weird, isn't it? It's like I'm still the person I was. It's a title.

Dr Irena O'Brien:

Exactly. Yeah.

Dr Nat Green:

And I love that and I love when we chatted recently on your amazing podcast, how it was just lovely to connect and chat about things. And I know today you are gonna be sharing some amazing things about the brain and bits about your research. And then our listeners will be able to relate it to trauma and how it will affect them in what they're going through. So I might get you to just start with. A brief introduction of what you do in the world now around your neuroscience school.

Dr Irena O'Brien:

So in, my school I teach coaches and helping professionals about the neuroscience of change. So we cover a wide range of topics from willpower and motivation to focus on decision making, emotion, stress, and, and then diet, exercise, and sleep. That is my passion, is about the diet exercise and sleep and how it affects the brain.

Dr Nat Green:

Yeah. It's such a fascinating area, isn't it? And there really is so much that we don't know. We know so little about the brain.

Dr Irena O'Brien:

That is true, but we do know more and more, and especially when it comes to diet, exercise, and sleep. It's such a growing area of research right now. Finally, scientists have jumped onto that bandwagon that we're a mind-body system, and that in order to have a healthy brain, you have to have a healthy body.

Dr Nat Green:

Definitely. So what do you think the biggest link is there that they hadn't been seeing?

Dr Irena O'Brien:

I think they saw us as, the brain being separate from the body and that the brain was actually more important than the body, which is not true. The purpose of the brain is to make sure that we grow, survive, and reproduce. It's not about thinking, it's not about emotion. It's not about making making the right decisions. It's really in service. The brain is in service of the body, and so the brain receives information right from the body, which is called interoceptive, sensations and sensations from outside the body or exteroceptive sensations, and it runs through the brain and the brain decides what to do with it. Based on past experience. So it decides what it means. So in the case of trauma, for example, we can just go right into trauma. So I'm not an expert in trauma. But I know generally how the brain works. So something happens, you have some sensation, either in interceptive exteroceptive, right from inside the body or outside the body. and that information is sent up to the brain and it happens so quickly, is that you don't even notice, like your heart will start beating faster. You don't notice that, but your heart does that, sends that information to the brain, and then the brain decides what that means. And the brain is built from past experience. So your brain is built from even before you were born from the womb. And that's how your brain, is built. So in effect, your brain really reflects all of your past experiences.

Dr Nat Green:

It really is so fascinating, isn't it? So past experiences from the time we're in the womb are all in there held within that brain. Every single thing.

Dr Irena O'Brien:

Every single thing.

Dr Nat Green:

Wow. And then I know you talk a lot about the predictive brain, so I'd love for you to introduce that if now's the right time, because we know that everything, all our experiences are held within our brain.

Dr Irena O'Brien:

Yeah, all our past experiences that, that's how our brain is built. And so let's say the brain takes all that information that I just talked about, that it receives from the body and from the outside world, and. Yeah, so it runs it through what it knows, like it its own model of the world because it's created, right? Your brain has created a model of the world for you. It runs it through that. And then issues a response. So with the predictive brain, and not just issues a response, it anticipates the response. So it makes a guess. Best based on past experience. So in effect, your brain will ask something like the last time that I was in this situation or a similar situation as this one today, what did I do then? And if you're alive today, your brain will say, oh, so I'll issue the same response again because I've kept you alive, so I must be doing something right.

Dr Nat Green:

Absolutely. And that's the key, isn't it? Our brain is working to keep us alive and it's using all our past experiences to help us know what to do next and how we respond or react. So it makes total sense, and I love how you put it in such. Easy to understand terms because really when in the past when I've tried to learn about neuroscience and study the brain it feels like there's so much, and my brain has struggled to keep all the information in there. So I really love how you've just said, no, this is what it is. You take all the things from inside us, all the signals from outside us. And then we make it make sense based on our own experiences. Would that be a correct understanding?

Dr Irena O'Brien:

Yep, exactly. And that's how trauma is perpetuated. Because it's always making the same predictions and predictions are not bad. Predictions are what enable us to play sports, right? Because we have to make fast responses. And if we waited until the brain had all the information and took its time to make a decision about what to do next, you'd never hit a tennis ball because it would go right by you

Dr Nat Green:

that me playing tennis, Irena

Dr Irena O'Brien:

yeah. And not just that, it also keeps us alive. So going for, a walk in the woods and you think you might see a bear, but you're not sure, right? It just looks, there's some kind of brown, figure maybe behind a tree you don't want your brain to start arguing with itself and thinking, is it a bear? Is it not a bear? Maybe I'll wait a little longer until I'm absolutely sure. No, your brain's gonna tell you to get outta there. So it's predicting that's a bear. So evolutionarily. It's kept us alive.

Dr Nat Green:

Yes. So the brain uses past experiences to predict future emotions and responses. Yes. What happens when our brain's predictions are inaccurate?

Dr Irena O'Brien:

We can change them. We can change them after the fact. So what I mean by that, so if that response is inappropriate there are a couple of things you can do to slow down, the there's one thing you can do to slow down the prediction. So when the information comes into the brain through the thalamus, it's sent to the amygdala. And the amygdala is mostly processes, emotion, especially fear. Yes. So that's like the trauma center right of the brain, but it also sends the information to the prefrontal cortex, but it takes longer to get to the prefrontal cortex. And so if you wait that 10 seconds or so, or I say counting to 10. Then your prefrontal cortex can kick in. Decide that, no, this is really not, this is not a dangerous, situation. And then it can change that prediction. So that's one way to do it. But I know in trauma it happens so fast that And that's really difficult to do sometimes. Actually, often it's difficult to do. So in theory, and I'm not saying it's easy in theory, you can change it after the fact it's issued its prediction, right? And so it causes this big emotional reaction. But you can evaluate that emotional reaction, right? And look at and say in this situation every time I have these, this combination of bodily responses and external responses, does it always mean that, right? And so you can change it and then eventually you'll start changing the brain's predictions going forward. Because you are changing the brain whenever you do that, and I realize it is not easy to do

Dr Nat Green:

In

Dr Irena O'Brien:

trauma.

Dr Nat Green:

Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. And I think though that. We know it's not easy. One of the biggest things, particularly for my audience with trauma, is that we wanna know that it's possible and that gives hope.

Dr Irena O'Brien:

It is possible, right?'cause the brain is plastic. So plastic means that it can rewire itself. It rewires itself with effort, right? The, a goal and effort. But it is possible. So in theory. It is. Everyone can rewire their brains and if you have difficulty with the trauma, that doesn't mean that there's something wrong with you.

Dr Nat Green:

Yes, definitely. And it's around starting to get that understanding of the predictive brain. May not always be correct. It may be coming from past. It is coming from past experiences, so if we can work out ways to cue that so it makes a different choice. That's part of that changing the brain and that neuroplasticity.

Dr Irena O'Brien:

Exactly. That's exactly what it is. And another thing too is also about what can help somewhat is accepting. The way things are. Or have, another way to put it is to have compassion for yourself.

Dr Nat Green:

That's a big one, isn't it? Because I know it's not something that comes naturally. We tend to be more critical of ourselves rather than compassionate, don't we?

Dr Irena O'Brien:

Yes. But it's one of the, one of the biggest gifts you can give yourself. Is to be compassionate. And it can take a long time. So I've had anxiety and I still suffer from anxiety, but, so I've had anxiety for a long time and I've been through therapy lots of years of therapy and coaching and I always hoped that the anxiety would go away. And then I'd also had a coach who kept encouraging me to accept. The anxiety, it took me like 10 years to finally accept that. Okay, so this is the way things are. And you know what? Surprisingly I felt calmer. The anxiety was not so potent anymore doesn't mean I don't have it but it wasn't so potent. And the research shows that when you accept. Circumstances that, it reduces the amygdala activation. So your amygdala activation is reduced and, yeah even the subjective feeling is reduced.

Dr Nat Green:

That's fascinating. So I'm just gonna ask if we can unpack that a little, just around that anxiety. What was it? That changed, that was almost like, obviously you'd been working for 10 years on it. Yeah. But you made a choice to accept it. What was it that got you there?

Dr Irena O'Brien:

I always thought that, and when I've said that to people, they say that's giving up right on change, but it's not giving up. It was just, I'm not sure. I guess like I'd read the literature and I knew that it was really beneficial to do it. And then, one day I did, but I'd been thinking about it for 10 years.

Dr Nat Green:

So you definitely had, the seeds were planted and you were already on your path, but it sounds like you couldn't do that until you were ready and one day you made a decision, you were ready and. You did get that benefit of accepting, making a difference.

Dr Irena O'Brien:

And then I can work on the anxiety, I can apply strategies without being so triggered as I was before. So it gave me some freedom.

Dr Nat Green:

Yeah. I love that. I love that so much. When you know, you've talked a little bit about neuroplasticity. So what role does neuroplasticity play in reshaping emotional responses? Just like that. How would you say from a neuroscience perspective that came about

Dr Irena O'Brien:

So it's your brain that issues the response. Like people talk about the heart, brain and that's the emotional center. It's not, the heart only does heart things, but it sends the information to the brain and the brain decides what to do with it. It's not the heart that decides because the heart doesn't have, any connections to the outside world, but the brain does. And so the brain decides what to do with it. So it's all about changing your predictive brain. It's really the only way to change an emotional reaction. You can do it consciously after the fact. You can start thinking about, oh really? Did that make sense? Was that the best response? Maybe in such similar situations I can start to respond in a different way. And then that's a new learning for the brain. And the more you do that, the more it will become your new model of the world going forward.

Dr Nat Green:

I'm not

Dr Irena O'Brien:

saying that's easy.

Dr Nat Green:

And I

Dr Irena O'Brien:

don't wanna minimize trauma at all. Can be very difficult and I think with trauma it, it's super difficult because the response is so instinctual and so dramatic.

Dr Nat Green:

And can be so intense and Yeah. Because, we're in that fight or flight mode so often and on it for free. Yeah,

Dr Irena O'Brien:

or

Dr Nat Green:

freeze or fawn. Now

Dr Irena O'Brien:

be even or fawn. Yeah.

Dr Nat Green:

Yeah. So because of that, it can influence and change that predictive brain, but as you've just shared, we are able to do it. We are able to start to train it, and I love that you can then get to that point of just making a decision to accept, accepting that this is the way it is and seeing what happens. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work. You try something else.

Dr Irena O'Brien:

Yeah. Yeah. But I think it can be hard to accept the reactions or the trauma reactions, because they just happen so quickly, and as you said, they're so intense. But you really, you're doing, if you can do that, then you're giving yourself like a huge gift.

Dr Nat Green:

Yeah, definitely. So you said that you really love working around the mind body side of things and really focusing on healthy and how we influence that with what we eat So what lifestyle factors have the biggest impact on brain health and emotional regulation from your perspective?

Dr Irena O'Brien:

All three of those, diet, exercise, and sleep. Sleep is super important, right? Getting, getting a good night's sleep. So after night of short sleep, the following day, you're easier to anger. Your negative emotional reactions are going to be, are going to be stronger. So getting a good night's sleep and then there are also brain benefits, right? So not, get, not getting enough sleep has really negative brain effects. It's been shown that, sleep that most psychological disorders or mental health disorders also have, comorbid sleep disorders. And so that's a chicken and egg question, which is, which came first?

Dr Nat Green:

Yeah. Which

Dr Irena O'Brien:

came first? That's not known, but it is known that sleep will help with all kinds of. Emotional reactions, and it will help with overall brain health because if you're not sleeping enough, you are actually damaging your brain, like physically damaging your brain. So sleep is hugely important. Exercise is more and more now is being seen as a number one treatment for depression.

Dr Nat Green:

And what sort of exercise? Assuming you're not telling us we need to go and run a marathon, what sort of exercise is beneficial to get someone started? If they're in that anxiety, depression, trauma response, where could they start?

Dr Irena O'Brien:

Anything that you can do, I. So you've all heard about the 10,000 steps a day? Yeah. That was the marketing, thing that, came outta Japan. I'm not sure when, in 1940s perhaps. Okay. And so it's not 10, it's not 10,000 steps a day, but the research has shown that even something like 2,500 steps a day is beneficial. So start where you are. Then of course, 10,000 steps is better than 2,500. But don't minimize the 2,500. You could do 2,500 steps, what? In 15 minutes, I think. 10,000 takes an hour. Yeah. So you can do 2,500 steps in 15 minutes. So go out for a walk every day and preferably in nature, if you can, or. I'm I'm fortunate to live in Montreal. I live in the city, but Montreal loves its trees. Oh, that's good. And all those streets are tree lined except for when you're really downtown. But all those streets are tree lined and so it's very green here in the summer, not in the winter, but it's very green, so it is pleasant to take a walk and so being in nature is beneficial also, in addition to the exercise part of it. Because nature's calming.

Dr Nat Green:

Oh, absolutely. Definitely. Yeah.

Dr Irena O'Brien:

Yeah. So start where you are and if you don't exercise at all, start going for 15 minute walks and see how you feel and try to get some nature in that 15 minute walk.

Dr Nat Green:

And what about what we eat?

Dr Irena O'Brien:

Diet, too is hugely important. So I am a fan of the Paleo diet. Yes. Do you know what Paleo diet? Yeah, I'm a fan and I border on keto too.

Dr Nat Green:

Yeah. I like keto personally. I'm a keto fan. Yeah.

Dr Irena O'Brien:

I border on keto, but I don't always succeed because I do like potatoes. Yikes. But, but carbs. Diet high carbs is really bad for the brain, and that's because of the high glucose and the high insulin. I just read a study about how, I can't remember exactly what it said, but scientists now called Alzheimer's type three diabetes. Oh,

Dr Nat Green:

really?

Dr Irena O'Brien:

Yeah. A high sugar, high carb diet is known to be really bad for the brain. Yeah. And so if something is bad for the brain, you're not gonna be at your best. And so I know me if I have a carb fixed, if I eat a big bag of chips at night, that happens sometimes. The following day. Do you know? I actually feel depressed. I feel lethargic and depressed the next day.

Dr Nat Green:

I can relate to that because yeah, if I make that choice and really is a choice, isn't it? But yeah. Oh yeah. I want it now. The next day, I'm the same. I'm quite sluggish, I think. Why did I do that? So definitely changes our capacity for doing things and thinking in the same way.

Dr Irena O'Brien:

And it makes the trauma feel worse. Because we're feeling awful. So it's making everything feel worse. And then it also SAPs our energy so you don't have the energy to deal with the trauma.

Dr Nat Green:

And I would imagine that it impacts that predictive brain that you've talked about, because then it goes back to thinking or experiencing a time where you also felt like that. So it keeps you stuck down in that anxiety, depression, or trauma response.

Dr Irena O'Brien:

Yeah. And there's also a reason why you had that bag of chips that night, right? You were probably self-medicating in a certain way, and that was your predictive brain in action.

Dr Nat Green:

Yeah, it really is absolutely fascinating. And I know that I introduced you that you said that you actually had a background in accounting. Yes. And I do think, wow, accounting to neuroscience. What on earth inspired you to transition from accounting to neuroscience? Irena,

Dr Irena O'Brien:

I was a tax accountant. Actually, which actually, as far as accounting goes, which was a lot more fun than just accounting. But, tax accounting is all about reading the law and investigating what does it mean? And in the research that I did, it's exactly the same thing. It was similar, right? It's about getting to the truth. So I think I'm just a researcher at heart. I, like I, I don't do any academic research anymore, but, I have my newsfeed of that I look at every day to see what's new in neuroscience, like what came out, what research came at neuroscience and psychology. And then I write about it and I have my podcast about it.

Dr Nat Green:

Yeah. Yeah. And definitely that keeps your brain neuroplastic and keeps you learning new things and growing, doesn't it really?

Dr Irena O'Brien:

Yeah. Yeah. But I also try and eat the healthy diet. I do. I'm pretty good at minimizing my carbs. You don't have to go to zero.

Dr Nat Green:

No.

Dr Irena O'Brien:

Or you don't have to be extreme about it, but, but food is readily available now, and it's also important to fast between meals, right? To empty the stomach between meals. That doesn't mean you have to go, like for this intermittent fasting that people talk about, where you only eat for a six hour window and then you fast for the other 18 hours. You can have your three meals a day, but don't eat between meals either. And it's important for your brain, for your insulin levels, for your body to fast between meals. I.

Dr Nat Green:

And again, you're talking about optimizing brain health as much as possible. So these are fascinating tips. They're fantastic tips for people who are looking to feel better overall, particularly if you've experienced trauma. These might be things that you can try or speak to your doctor about, trying to double check that it's okay and it's safe for you. So what about neuroscience is, it's a fascinating field, as I've said. What do would you say are some common neuroscience myths or misunderstandings that you'd like to debunk?

Dr Irena O'Brien:

That we only use 10% of our brain. That's absolutely not true. We use all of our brain all the time. And and this 10% of our brain really it just blames people for their own. I'm not gonna use the word disorders, but for their own struggles. And that's not true. We use all of our brains all the time. What's another one? I can't think of one right now. Can you think of any Nat?

Dr Nat Green:

I think that's a really good one.'cause you, how often do we hear that it's oh, you only use 10% of your brain. Not one thing that does fascinate me is around, and I don't know that it's a myth, is around that prefrontal cortex and the brain doesn't develop fully until the age of 25. I'm not saying that's a myth. I'd love you to talk about that.

Dr Irena O'Brien:

I'm not sure of the exact age, but it is in the early twenties actually. And so that's why you see that young people are often impulsive. They can make poor decisions that we can see objectively as being poor. I know my son, when he got his car, he was. Very late teens. He was a, he was about 20 and the car accidents that he would get into, but it wasn't car accidents with other cars, he. He ended up in a pothole, like a deep pothole one time in a parking lot. Oh. Deep. And yeah, it really damaged his car. Another time he was driving down a hill and he was too fast and he hit the curb with his wheel driving down fast, so he damaged his wheel. So it was things like that. And it was thinking like like, where's your brain?

Dr Nat Green:

And it's funny, isn't it? Not funny, but it, that's the reality that when we have our more mature brain, we can see that, we can see objectively the things that are going on. But it's really important as a parent that we understand that. I think that they're not deliberately doing that. That part of the brain hasn't actually developed yet.

Dr Irena O'Brien:

Yeah. And you find especially young men, right at that age, yes. They feel invincible. Do you see that?

Dr Nat Green:

Have you

Dr Irena O'Brien:

experienced Oh, yes. I have

Dr Nat Green:

a young man in his, he's 22, 23 this year, and I see, yeah, see that happening with him and his friends, and you just think you are nearly there. You are nearly there, 20 to 25 age.

Dr Irena O'Brien:

I have a friend who's a restaurant owner, and she has a lot of young people who serve in a restaurant, young people, like in their early twenties, late teens, early twenties. And she affectionately says that they're dumb. Like they're just stupid at that age, and she doesn't mean it, it's a term of endearment that she using.

Dr Nat Green:

Yes, of course. So what would you say has been the most surprising discovery in your research on the brain and emotions?

Dr Irena O'Brien:

The most surprising thing is that we construct our emotions. That we construct all of our emotional responses from the information that we get from our bodily sensations and from the external sensations, right? And that's sent up to the brain, and then the brain decides the emotional response. So it's the brain that always decides, even though it feels like it's coming from our body, it's not. It's the brain that decides. Yeah. So the brain decides, oh, one of the surprising things too, not just about emotion, but just about even touch, for example, is a brain response.

Dr Nat Green:

Tell me a bit more about that.

Dr Irena O'Brien:

Yeah. Even touch is a brain response. And that became really clear. So I have a student gave an example of how during the pandemic they tried to get her mother to use an iPad so that she could zoom with her grandchildren and with her children. But her mom suffered from neuropathy, which is like no feeling in yay. And so she couldn't even. Like when she tapped the, so she could physically tap whatever she wanted, but it didn't register in the brain.

Dr Nat Green:

Ah,

Dr Irena O'Brien:

because of neuropathy. Yeah. So the new touching the keys, ah, but it didn't register in the brain. So all our, so even touch is brain derived.

Dr Nat Green:

That's fascinating and makes a lot of sense. Yeah, I'm just thinking, I. My dad has peripheral neuropathy in his feet. So even as he's walking along, the messages he is getting to his brain are gonna be different, aren't they?

Dr Irena O'Brien:

They're gonna be different. Yeah. Some people with neuropathy, could take their limbs through something that would cause us tremendous pain and for them it doesn't. Doesn't register in the brain. Yeah.

Dr Nat Green:

Wow. Oh, we could talk all day. There really is so much information now available to us that just wasn't around when we started in our careers. You look at the changes over the last, 30 years, they're huge. And we really living in an exciting time that there's so much change and things evolving. I can't even begin to imagine how it's gonna be in another 30 years as we learn more and more. Oh

Dr Irena O'Brien:

yeah. Yeah. It's gonna be amazing. Another thing about trauma too is that you really, you feel it in the body, right? That you feel the emotion. In the body. Bessel Van Der Kolk's book, the body keeps the score. Yes. And then there are some other yeah. And then there are others and it is true. But all your feeling. So the body keeps the sensation, the brain decides what emotion it is. But that sensation in trauma is so strong. And because of your predictive brain, it always issues the same response.

Dr Nat Green:

Exactly.

Dr Irena O'Brien:

Yeah. And if that sensation was less strong, then the brain might issue a different response. But how do you lessen the sensation?

Dr Nat Green:

Great. I don't know, question.

Dr Irena O'Brien:

Yeah. How do you lessen sensation.

Dr Nat Green:

That's a really great question. And I guess that's where that somatic work and the nervous system work really comes in.

Dr Irena O'Brien:

Yeah.

Dr Nat Green:

The training that I'm doing at the moment, and we talked about this as this TRE, so trauma and Tension release exercises, which is about. Working out where that trauma or emotional response is stored in our brain and finding a safe, gentle way to release that through in the process that I use in tremoring. So starting to gradually release that from our body may work, just as you've talked about in reducing that. Emotional response and that intensity so that we change our overall response to trauma that way.

Dr Irena O'Brien:

Because it always starts from the body, it starts from the bodily sensations. Yes. So if you can reduce it, then your brain is going to predict differently. So do you find that's helpful to very,

Dr Nat Green:

Very helpful in just having an overall calming effect. And the more you practice it. It's like different, it's like an onion. The more layers peel away and for some people that do it, they might be get this flood of intense emotion. So you should never try it on your own. If you've got severe intense PTSD for example, it's something that once you're no longer in that intense phase, that you can do it gently and it's something you can do for 10 minutes a day. A day or 10 minutes, a few times a week, and it just gently peels away the layers and gives you that sense of being able to regulate your nervous system and your emotional response in a more controlled way.

Dr Irena O'Brien:

Yeah. And then you're changing your predictive brain patterns when you're doing that too, if you do that on a regular basis. And then if you're reducing that, that sensation I'm not gonna call it an emotion because the brain decides it's an emotion. But the bodily sensation that comes up first

Dr Nat Green:

Yes, definitely. And then it makes a decision of what it's gonna interpret it as.

Dr Irena O'Brien:

Yeah. And so if that bodily sensation is less intense, then it will interpret it differently. The brain will interpret it differently.

Dr Nat Green:

Yes. Which again, flows into that neuroplasticity, reshaping emotional responses after trauma, doesn't it? Yes. So I wanna really just spend a little bit of time as we finish up. About your neuroscience school. So how can coaches and therapists apply neuroscience to help clients manage their emotions more effectively?

Dr Irena O'Brien:

Wow. So we do have, my program is a 14 module a program, so we do go through all of this. Yeah so we do go through things like what I said will power, motivation, oh. We take a deeper look at neuroplasticity. We look at focus and decision making. Stress. We look at stress. So there's a module on stress, there's a module on emotion there's a module on resilience. What else is there? Diet, exercise, sleep, and relationships. We also do that too. So there are, even though I don't specifically address trauma in the program, because that's a specialized field. And I don't have that, expertise. There are tools and strategies that you can learn to help. For example, with my anxiety, there, there are tools and strategies that I've learned that, that help with that. So acceptance and compassion is one. And so I tell them often. The students often that it's a gift to yourself, to and to your clients. And it also helps with when you have compassion, when you can help your client with self-compassion. It, because it's hard, or I would even say it's impossible to change if you're still beating yourself up.

Dr Nat Green:

Yes.

Dr Irena O'Brien:

Over stuff. Right. You have to calm down the nervous system before you can start to change. So you could do techniques like breathing, right to calm down, heart rate variability. To calm down the nervous system compassion to calm down the nervous system. And then you can start to make changes. But there are other strategies. I built my business. I was in a high anxious state and I would wake up in the morning with a sense of despair. I I don't wake up with a sense of despair anymore, but I did for a long time and. So I learned a strategy to start my day. I'm just talking about start my work day, right? I go to my office at, in my home and I'd sit in front of the computer and I didn't wanna do anything because I felt so awful. And so the strategy is start with something small and simple that you can achieve. And the theory behind that is once you achieve that, but some small and simple something, it's still important to do. For for your business or for your work. And once you achieve that, you get a spike in dopamine.

Dr Nat Green:

So you

Dr Irena O'Brien:

feel great after you've done that and that spike in dopamine predicts your success on the next task. So you can. You can organize your day as a series of small tasks. So you keep getting that dopamine hit all day long. I've heard someone call it a dopamine drip. Oh, I like that. And it absolutely worked. It works to start with a small, achievable task, the first thing in the morning, and I was always amazed about how that would create a productive day for me.

Dr Nat Green:

What a fabulous tip. And I think, we can all benefit from that trauma or no trauma, that's something, life is full of ups and downs as part of being human. It's going to have ups and downs. So those are really exciting tips to know that we can just do one little thing and set our day up differently.

Dr Irena O'Brien:

I teach that to all my students that, that one trick and how it can set them up for a productive day. And yeah, they've all seen it. How it does create a productive day. So this starting with the hardest thing first. That never worked for me because I would sit there. And just not wanna start because I felt so much in despair.

Dr Nat Green:

I thought you were gonna say start with the hardest thing first. And my head went, oh no, I don't like that. I always procrastinate on that one. That's good.

Dr Irena O'Brien:

Yeah, that's what happens. So if I'm sitting down to write an article, writing an article is hard. It. And from let's say, explaining a research study. So I'll take something easy like I used to be the kind that I like to start the first word or the first sentence and write it that way. But, that's not the way articles are written. So I'll do something easy, like just cut and paste the method section into my document and start to work on that, on simplifying that. Then, you know that later on in the day or the next day, I might add more. And the other thing too is that now I write over four or five days rather than trying to put it out all in one shot so I can think about it and make edits.

Dr Nat Green:

So chunking it down into small bite sized chunks,

Dr Irena O'Brien:

The whole thing is it has to be achievable. The chunk that you, yeah. That you chunk it down to has to be achievable so you have a feeling of success.

Dr Nat Green:

Yes. And get that dopamine drip happening. I love that. Yeah. Yeah. I know that your neuroscience school has a new intake coming up. Can you tell us a bit about that?'cause I'm sure there'd be a number of our listeners who think this is really fascinating. I'm really interested in finding out about Dr. Irena's neuroscience school.

Dr Irena O'Brien:

Yeah, we have a, an intake coming up really soon. I have a webinar on April 15th. I have two times at 12 noon and at 6:00 PM Montreal time. So the 6:00 PM time should be doable for people in Australia.

Dr Nat Green:

Yes. That'd be perfect time. 6:00 PM

Dr Irena O'Brien:

time. And the webinar is about cognitive flexibility. So I have the webinar and that's when the cart opens. We start on April 28th. And this intake is an accelerated program. So rather than doing it over 16 weeks, we do it over eight weeks. So it's double the speed.

Dr Nat Green:

Oh, that sounds great. So I'll put that in the show notes. Definitely the link to that. So where can our listeners find out more about you and find you online?

Dr Irena O'Brien:

Neuroscience school.com.

Dr Nat Green:

That's easy. Neuroscience school.com. Yeah.

Dr Irena O'Brien:

Yeah. And yeah, the webinar, I'm gonna post it. I'm gonna put put like a banner on the site for the webinar.

Dr Nat Green:

Excellent. So we'll put the link in the show notes and everyone can head on over and check it out. I'm very keen to, to look at it. I might even sign up, I think for this round.

Dr Irena O'Brien:

Oh, it'd be lovely to have you to have you join us. Yeah.

Dr Nat Green:

I'm most interested. I find neuroscience fascinating. As I said, it's such a huge field and you make it make so much sense.

Dr Irena O'Brien:

That seems to be my secret sauce. I've been told that, that I make it I simplify it. I make it understandable.

Dr Nat Green:

Yeah. I love that so much. So is there any other great words of wisdom you'd like to leave our listeners with before we finish up?

Dr Irena O'Brien:

The most important things that you can do for a healthy brain is diet, exercise, and sleep. If you do those things, you're gonna feel better and you are. I'm not saying that it will, but your trauma symptoms might reduce a bit. But in any event, it's good for the brain and it's good for healthy aging.

Dr Nat Green:

And let's face it, we wanna age healthily, don't we?

Dr Irena O'Brien:

Yeah, we do. We do. And as far as trauma specific, I empathize. I know it's difficult and the reactions come, our predictive brain issues those reactions before, before we even realize what's happening.

Dr Nat Green:

Yeah. And I think that's key, isn't it? That we doesn't happen really slowly and we get time to think about it and process it. It's bang, it's a response and it's there and it's oh, where did that come from?

Dr Irena O'Brien:

Yeah. It goes from zero to 100 in no time.

Dr Nat Green:

Yeah. But I'm so grateful because you've shared some amazing tips and strategies that I know our listeners are gonna be like, oh my goodness, that's wonderful. And be testing things out. Even if they just sitting there getting that one dopamine hit of a morning to start their day and they're taking their two and a half thousand steps. Just one little thing to make a difference.

Dr Irena O'Brien:

That starting small is super important because if we bite off too big a goal, it'll stop us in our tracks, right? It's scary. But we can always start with something small. If you can't do 2,500 steps in a day, just go for a five minute walk. Just take a walk around the block. Like start somewhere and it's never too late. That's the other thing. People think it's too late so that you can be too late. But the research shows that you can, that even a seniors 80 years old can start exercise programs and they get physical and cognitive benefits from it.

Dr Nat Green:

Yeah. It's never

Dr Irena O'Brien:

too late. Just start

Dr Nat Green:

Exactly. Make a decision to start. Small things. What's that saying? I always botch up sayings. I think it's how do we eat an elephant? One bite at a time. At a time, yeah, exactly. That things can feel really big. Particularly when our body is sending messages, our brain's interpreting. Our brain's predicting it. Things can feel so overwhelming. But we can just choose one thing, one tiny little thing and make a start. So it's possible for all of us, and I thank you so much for coming on. I think you've given us so much hope that we can change our brain and we can mold it to, create a different future for ourselves. So thank you so much, Irena. It's been wonderful having you on.

Dr Irena O'Brien:

Thank you so much, Nat, for inviting me. Thank you. It's been wonderful.

Dr Nat Green:

Great. Bye for now.

Dr Irena O'Brien:

Okay, bye.

Dr Nat Green:

Thank you for joining me in this episode of Growing Tall Poppies. It is my deepest hope that today's episode may have inspired and empowered you to step fully into your post-traumatic growth, so that you can have absolute clarity around who you are, what matters the most to you, and to assist you to release your negative emotions. And regulate your nervous system so you can fully thrive. New episodes are published every Tuesday, and I hope you'll continue to join us as we explore both the strategies and the personal qualities required to fully live a life of post-traumatic growth and to thrive. So if it feels aligned to you and really resonates. Then I invite you to hit Subscribe and it would mean the world to us if you could share this episode with others who you feel may benefit too. You may also find me on Instagram at Growing Tall Poppies and Facebook, Dr. Natalie Green. Remember, every moment is an opportunity to look for the lessons. And to learn and increase your ability to live the life you desire and deserve. So for now, stay connected. Stay inspired. Stand tall like the tall poppy you are, and keep shining your light brightly in the world. Bye for now.

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Dr Natalie Green

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