Growing Tall Poppies

Episode 49:- The Scientific Support for Unlocking the Power of Spirituality in Healing

• Dr Natalie Green • Season 2 • Episode 49

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Can science and spirituality work together in healing trauma? 

In this episode of Growing Tall Poppies, Dr. Nat Green sits down with Tatiana Da Silva, to explore the intersection of spirituality and science in trauma recovery. Tatiana is a psychologist, spiritual coach and educator, and host of the Integrated Wisdom Podcast, who is working to guide other therapists and psychologists in the integration of spirituality in their practice in an evidence-based and ethical manner. 

Tatiana shares compelling research and real-world applications that demonstrate how spiritual practices—when backed by scientific evidence—can enhance resilience, mental well-being, and post-traumatic growth. This episode moves beyond traditional healing models, focusing on  science backed methods that integrate both spiritual and clinical approaches to recovery and transformation.

Key Highlights & Takeaways:

✔️ The scientific research behind spirituality’s impact on mental health and healing
✔️ How evidence-based practices like mindfulness, meditation, and engaging in activities that spark awe support trauma recovery
✔️ Why post-traumatic growth is possible through a balanced approach to science and spirituality
✔️ Practical ways to integrate scientifically supported spiritual practices into your healing journey

✔️ The latest research on spirituality as a protective factor for mental and physical health
 ✔️ Why it can take 20+ years for new healing modalities to gain clinical approval
✔️ How therapists, coaches, and individuals can integrate spiritual practices in an ethical, evidence-based way
✔️ The importance of addressing all dimensions for true healing

This episode  opens the door to new, powerful ways to move beyond trauma through incorporating spirituality in daily practice. Whether you're a therapist, coach, or someone on your own healing journey, you won’t want to miss this conversation!

If you've ever wondered how spirituality fits into healing after trauma or adversity, this episode will give you the science-backed clarity you need.

Connect with Tatiana Da Silva:

Email: hello@integratedwisdom.com.au 

Instagram 

Integrated Wisdom Podcast

Links to Resources :
FREE Guide: 20 Client Conversation Starters Guide

Join the The Conscious Therapist Waitlist to commence Tatiana's next course in May 2025.

🔗 Tune in now on your favorite podcast platform!


If this episode resonates with you then I'd love for you to hit SUBSCRIBE so you can keep updated with each new episode as soon as it's released and we'd be most grateful if you would give us a RATING as well. You can also find me on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/drnatgreen/ or on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/DrNatalieGreen

Intro and Outro music: Inspired Ambient by Playsound.

Disclaimer: This podcast is intended for educational purposes only. It is not intended to be deemed or treated as psychological treatment or to replace the need for psychological treatment.

Dr Nat Green:

Welcome to the Growing Tall Poppies Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Nat Green, and I'm so excited to have you join me as we discuss what it means to navigate your way through post-traumatic growth and not just survive, but to thrive after trauma. Through our podcast, we will explore ways for you to create a life filled with greater purpose, self-awareness, and a deep inner peace. Through integrating the many years of knowledge and professional experience, as well as the wisdom of those who have experienced trauma firsthand. We'll combine psychology accelerated approaches. Coaching and personal experience to assist you, to learn, to grow and to thrive. I hope to empower you to create deeper awareness and understanding and stronger connections with yourself and with others, whilst also paving the way for those who have experienced trauma and adversity to reduce their suffering and become the very best versions of themselves. In order to thrive. Thank you so much for joining me on today's episode. I'm so pleased today to bring you our next guest on the Growing Tall Poppies podcast. I. It's my absolute pleasure and privilege to welcome back a guest we've had on here before whose episode got lots of amazing comments and feedback, and that was on episode 24 of season one. If anyone would love to go back and listen to it. This lady is a wonderful dear friend of mine, and I'm so excited to reintroduce her again today. She has had her own trauma experiences, as we discussed on the last episode, but today she's gonna talk to us about how she found her calling and what she's now doing. Which will be so impactful for those of you who have been through your own trauma experiences, but also for those of you who are therapists and coaches who are working. in the field with people with trauma. So let me introduce the beautiful Tatiana DeSilva to you all. Tatiana is a psychologist, spiritual coach and educator, and she runs the Integrated Wisdom Podcast, which I highly recommend you head on over and listen to. And she's working to guide other therapists and psychologists in the integration of spirituality in their practice in an evidence-based and ethical manner. So welcome, Tatiana. It's so great to have you back again.

Tatiana da Silva:

Oh, thank you so much Nat for asking me back and inviting me back. I'm really excited to be here again, and to talk about the things that I love the most. So I feel very honored that you asked me back. Thank you. Oh.

Dr Nat Green:

That's my absolute pleasure and I'm so excited because I know since we last caught up, you have done so many more amazing things and really dived even deeper into the spiritual side of things and how to integrate that in practice. So let's start with you giving us a brief introduction again, for those of you who haven't yet met you, of who you are and what you do in the world. Yes, of course. As you said, I am a psychologist. I work currently in private practice a few days a week here in Sydney. But I've also been running, a business that's focused on providing evidence-based education on around spirituality or the integration of spirituality, science, and psychology. These are things that I'm really passionate about, so I run my podcast as you mentioned before, integrated Wisdom, which I publish episodes every fortnight. And I've also been running a course that focuses on guiding. Therapists, psychologists and any other professional that's working with clients in supporting their mental health on the integration of spirituality into their practice in an ethical and also evidence-based way and. That's the bulk of my focus at the moment, and I am loving every second of it. Oh and really when we talk about this, and I know we've had many conversations about it, I love how much you light up and you can see how passionate you are and you bring so much joy to a topic that often can be. One that often people avoid or can be quite controversial. But one thing I really wanna preface in this episode is that the one common thread that every single one of my podcast guests who've been on to date, every single one of them has talked about how spirituality has been. A key factor for them in healing from trauma. So can you maybe give us an explanation of what spirituality really is?

Tatiana da Silva:

Yes, absolutely. And before I do that, I'm not surprised. I just wanna say I'm not surprised that's a common thread among your participants because when we start diving into what spirituality is, and also the biological components or the neurobiological components of spirituality and how they support our resilience. It starts to make sense why this is such a key feature for People's Healing journey. But in essence, when I'm talking about spirituality and what the research is referring to, when they talk about the benefits of spirituality, it's this ability to connect with a. Transcendent sense of self a perception or a knowing of a higher existence of a more expansive perception of the world. For some people they will talk about it in terms of connecting with a sense of a higher power or the universe, but it's really about tapping into this connection. This sense of connection to something much larger beyond ourselves and this feeling of interconnectedness between all things, not just us and other people, but us in nature as in animals and the universe as well.

Dr Nat Green:

Wow. And I think just giving it that explanation rather than what people often automatically think, oh, I don't wanna talk about religion. And they think that spirituality means religion, but that's a myth that really is that, and we are gonna talk more about that today. I know because we've had so many wonderful conversations in this area and you've educated me so much on this. So can you maybe talk a little bit more to that?

Tatiana da Silva:

Yes, absolutely. So there has actually been a lot of studies that, that have looked at the relationship of. Spirituality and in historically, it's always been couched with religion. So whenever studies or researchers were looking at this component in relation to mental health, they would look at it as the two things combined. Yeah. Until a researcher around the late nineties Dr. Kendler, he started actually trying to delineate is there a difference between religion and spirituality? Are these dimensions the same or is there any distinction between them? And what he found is they are actually very distinct concepts.

Dr Nat Green:

Wow.

Tatiana da Silva:

Yeah, which is interesting, right?

Dr Nat Green:

Yeah.

Tatiana da Silva:

And he was able to delineate it in the research was that, religion is often these as it's what they termed personal conservatism. So it's about the attachment to the dogma, to following the rituals and following the rules and, the ability that you're guided by somebody else. Like you go to your place of worship and you get taught, to think about things in a particular way. You get, provided some moral guidelines, you some behavioral guidelines and rituals to follow. And that's the religious component of that. But the spiritual, which the research termed personal devotion really started to identify that there is this component where people are able to just connect with that sense of transcendence, right? That sense of interconnectedness, that sense of expansiveness, and it was about a felt experience, an individual felt sense. So I always like to describe it as religion is something that comes from the outside in. We go to our place of worship and we get given, we take on these ideas or beliefs or morals. Whereas spirituality, in its truest sense is an inside out process, we connect with a felt experience. We know we have an inner knowing of our connectedness with the universe, with source, with others. Then that then guides our behavior and the research basically confirmed or demonstrated this very clearly. And what his research also demonstrated is that there's actually three ways in which these dimensions manifest. So an individual can be religious and spiritual. They can be religious but not spiritual. Or they can be spiritual but not religious, which is how I would identify.

Dr Nat Green:

Wow, that is so fascinating because often, we're raised and society has taught us that it's one or the other, or that it's you're either religious or you're not. And this opens up a whole minefield of amazing things for us to explore and really. Tap into from a trauma perspective to help us to grow.

Tatiana da Silva:

100%. And I think it's really helpful to have this delineation because like you said, for a lot of people, they will baulk at the idea of spirituality because of the association with religion. And when you start to differentiate those two things, then it becomes accessible to everybody. We can talk about the benefits of spirituality in our non-denominational way, and it's got a universal reach, which I find really exciting.

Dr Nat Green:

Oh, absolutely. What a fabulous way to look at it. So tell me then a little bit more, if you were to give our listeners a little bit more information about the types of ways they can start to understand spirituality and how it might fit into their world.

Tatiana da Silva:

Yeah. So like I said, spirituality is very much an inside out process, so it's an internal felt experience and it's anything that the individual is able to use to connect with that expanded sense of self, where they the blur the lines between me and the world and everything else blurs a little bit and we don't feel so alone. There's lots of ways that people can access that. So I guess more the more traditional ways of things like meditation. Meditation can be a really useful and effective pathway for connecting with those experiences. But I'm very partial to things like communing in nature engaging in activities that. That strike awe and wonder in us like that is act or is a dimension of spirituality. And so anything that will strike that feeling for us is a gateway to accessing our, to our personal spirituality. The, I guess the more. Controversial, risky ways to do it are through the use of some psychedelic substances, of course. And and again, when we think about it in the context of trauma, it's not surprising that psychedelic treatment is becoming, a component or consideration in treatment. And it has been shown a lot of promise. And that's because in many ways these substances that have been identified, they connect or interact with the parts of the brain that we know are associated with spiritual experiences. And, yeah, you have to wonder like to what extent is it the substance? To what extent is it the spiritual connection that the person gets from you substance that's providing that healing effect. There's lots that we could talk about there. Yeah. But obviously in terms of like just an everyday practice communing in nature, doing things that bring that strike joy. Like for some people it's connecting with their art, something that they can absorb themselves in something creative or dancing like I. Partially between you, me and you know this about me, Nat. But I love singing like singing something that really like just expands my sense of self and it makes me feel really connected. But nature as well. Someone said, strike awe in me, the ocean has a particular appeal. So different people have different ways that they connect with that feeling of wonder. And that is always a gateway for spirituality.

Dr Nat Green:

Oh, that is so good. Like I know that we had a conversation about this probably a couple of years ago when you were talking about awe and wonder, and I thought, oh, I love a great sunset. I've always been someone who loves the sunset, but I also love at nighttime looking at the stars.

Tatiana da Silva:

For me too,

Dr Nat Green:

and oh my goodness. And I'm involved with our local observatory now and I absolutely love it. Looking at the planets and the stars and just wondering what else is out there and all these things that we can see through a telescope that we are not aware of. When we get that awareness and that deep connection to something beyond ourselves, regardless of what it is. Yeah, it does evoke this sense of joy and almost this thing as we were little kids that we didn't have to think would bring us joy. Yeah. Automatically happen because we didn't have all the experiences and all the other things to filter out that we do as adults. And True. Yeah. It just opens up so many opportunities for anyone. To connect and reconnect with the things that brought them joy. I love that so much.

Tatiana da Silva:

100%. And I'm so glad that you brought up the example of the observatory.'cause I remember the very first time I went to the observatory here in Sydney, just like I was like a little kid, like awe struck just looking at like the telescope and the planets that we could see the reach that he had. And it was just the most. Remarkable experience. And things like that are so accessible, right? Like absolute, most people make way to an observatory or, access a telescope any I think it connects us with that sense of. Kid-like wonder, but also it humbles us, right? Yes. All of a sudden we understand like we're just this tiny little speck and this vastness, but it doesn't feel isolating. It feels embracing, right? Which is, I love that other side effect of spirituality. You feel embraced, you feel connected, you don't feel alone, and that it can be a very useful. Protective factor against loneliness.

Dr Nat Green:

Oh I can just, my mind's going, my A DHD brain is going a million miles an hour thinking, wow, how can we use this as well? The work that we are doing, and that's why I love so much that you are now really such a strong advocate for how you can work with therapists, coaches, helping professionals who are working with people with varying degrees of mental health or feeling disconnected and lonely, how you can help them. To bring this into their practice. So can you talk a little bit more about that and what you're noticing as you're doing that?

Tatiana da Silva:

Yeah. So I think for individuals that are able to tap into their spiritual, sense or develop a personal spiritual practice. We know there are lots of protective factors, right? So it helps to diminish the risks of depression, anxiety, addiction. It has a particularly strong protective impact around suicidal ideation and self-harm behavior. But I think like in the broadest sense, having that spiritual connection or perception can also just increase a person's sense of curiosity. It can increase their sense of flexibility or psychological flexibility, which we know are skills that can help people navigate uncertainty, which, is one of the core, um, problematic traits of things like anxiety disorders and depression, right? Like a lot of the time people are suffering with those conditions because they struggle with sitting in that uncertainty. Yes. And that need for control, right? And so when you're able to have this psychological flexibility, this ability to to trust and surrender a little bit, it can make navigating these inevitable periods of uncertainty that we have to face in life so much easier to navigate. It's also been really impactful for clients going through grief. It helps them really connect with this idea that I. There's like their loved ones is still connected to them in some way, and there's so much comfort that comes from that, right? I'm not even talking about like mediumship or speaking to spirits or anything like that. It's just that felt sense that there's this connection, that the love is still there, that it transcends everything and people can find that very comforting.

Dr Nat Green:

Oh, I can imagine absolutely. That it just gives them that sense of hope. And that capacity to move on. Yeah. And start to work out how to reconnect and live their life again. Yeah that's huge. Huge way to move forward in the field of grief in trauma. With that, that sadness and that uncertainty, as you've so beautifully articulated. That sense of working in that spiritual domain and in that spirituality realm can really help people, I would imagine, to heal. And have a sense of control over what they do to move forward.

Tatiana da Silva:

Yeah, absolutely. It empowers them right, to recognize that they can find meaning in the situation that they're navigating, that they have the ability to to extract, yeah. Not just the meaning, but also the. The learnings from that experience, which I think for, for a lot of us can really help us feel Yeah. Empowered in control when we're facing struggles. Yeah, it just it has so many benefits I think.

Dr Nat Green:

Oh so many far reaching benefits. So yeah. So maybe what would be helpful is when you are working with a client in your therapy room regardless of what they've come in for. How do you bring in spirituality into your room yourself and with your client?

Tatiana da Silva:

Yeah, so I always try to get a gauge very early on of where the client might sit in terms of comfort levels about speaking to these things. And one exercise that I like to use with clients really early on, which I take from acceptance and commitment therapy, and it opens up the conversation in a very non-confrontational way is. In act, there's this values exercise called the Life Compass, and it's basically like a template. Where you have the 10 core life domains that most people would resonate with, and you get them to think about who they want to be in those different life areas. And one of the domains on that template is a spirituality domain. And so that allows me to then open that conversation up what does spirituality mean to you? What does do you have a spiritual perception or at all, or is. There a concept of spirituality that resonates with you, and then from there we can start talking about it. But in other ways that I will use it if I, if the person's not particularly, open to discussing it more overtly, then I will still guide them towards exercises that I know will help them connect with the spiritual dimensions that I know are going to be impactful. So we might do some mindfulness exercises. We might do some visualization exercises we might do in, in acceptance and commitment therapy. There is that spiritual component where it guides people to connect with their observer self. And that's a very spiritual perspective. And so I like to use that concept because it allows people to, take that step back, identify what's, within their sphere of influence. So we might talk about it in those terms. I invite them to engage in activities that will strike awe in, in wonder for them. So we can approach it in those indirect ways, but I've had clients who spontaneously will initiate conversations about their own spiritual perspectives very explicitly, and then we can talk about it much more openly. And we can talk about some of the research, which I love in some. I've had instances where, people have spoken to me about their own experiences with connecting with loved ones that have passed. And so we, we can talk about it from that perspective. And I can talk about the research around this in, in, there's research that's been done around these sorts of experiences as well that I can then I might talk to them about. But it really is tailored to what the person brings into the room more than what I would like to bring to the room.

Dr Nat Green:

Mm, very powerful. So really it's not, definitely not a one size fits all. It's very much you connecting to that person's unique belief system and understanding, and I love that so much. But what I love even more is that you are on a mission to. Make sure that it's no longer taboo, which it has been seen for so many years that we talk about these things in therapy.

Tatiana da Silva:

Yes. Yes. And I think we need to be talking about this, right? Like we absolutely in history where we're struggling with meaning there's a crisis of meaning in the world and we're all suffering so much from that. And so I think. Inevitably in a pathway out of this crisis is to start reconnecting people to that sense of expansiveness to that sense of their own spiritual lens for life. So that they don't feel alone, so that they have the tools to navigate this. Very uncertain time. Like I'm very consciously trying not to look at the news at the moment. Oh. But every now, yes, of course. Things will come across you. And it's if we allow ourselves to get caught up in what the headlines are showing, like it, you're just living in anxiety and fear the whole time because it's, there's so much chaos going on at the moment. And so to be able to bring back to this really grounding feeling of. Or, okay, there's this, there's this guiding, benevolent, loving force that's, overseeing so much, or that there's a purpose to navigating some of these challenges, like that can alleviate some of that distress. And also just it's a pathway to just reconnecting people to the knowledge that we're not that different from each other, right? Like we all have underlying, traits that are universal and connect us to each other. So start to dissolve these illusions of division that at the moment are just so prevalent.

Dr Nat Green:

They're everywhere, aren't they? It's frightening. And if we were, as you said, to tune into that, which we know many people do, their filter is to. Just keep looking at everything that's going on. They need to know because of the sense of uncertainty, I need to be in control as much as I can, but we know that serves the opposite effect and it makes us more uncertain, more anxious, more distressed. So let's talk a little bit more then about how spirituality can play a role in that, just as you've touched on there.

Tatiana da Silva:

Like I'm saying, I think when we're able to connect with this sense with like our sense of expanded connection to something vast, right? Beyond ourselves, one of the side effects of that is that you actually get a deactivation of your nervous system, right? You start to feel a little bit more I guess the best word for it is protected or taken care of. There's this sense that. Everything's okay, which is that, that feeling of surrender. And oh, I know that like the research is escaping me right now. I'm so sorry. But there is actually research. I don't wanna botch the data, but there is a research that was done where they were looking, they were mapping different parts of the brain around connecting with spirituality and the they were found to show, they showed that these dimensions of spirituality, particularly things like connecting with a sense of awe and wonder could. Deactivate the mechanisms in the brain that were connected with, like our alert system or our threat system. And so helped people navigate their sense of uncertainty with greater ease. I just can't remember right now the research who did it and the exact findings, but the gist of it was that there are parts in the brain that, that get, either activated or deactivated to that lead to a person not feeling that sense of uncertainty anymore, like it soothes that sense of the stress from uncertainty,

Dr Nat Green:

that's really powerful and getting that information. And really, we're so lucky that we are around in this day and age and we have so much access to neuroscience and neurological research that we did not have. 10 years ago, 20 years ago, and certainly 30 years ago when I started out in this field, that realistically, who knows what lies ahead when they're able to do studies that really tap into research and evidence-based, and I know you very much are evidence-based.

Tatiana da Silva:

Yeah. I believe that's really important because particularly in, in the realm of. Trauma survivors. There are so many different people out there who are quite willing to exploit the vulnerability of these individuals. And will throw all sorts of snake oil and promise. But people in their moment of need and vulnerability, they will gravitate towards anything that can promise freedom from that suffering and exactly. So it is, it can be quite dangerous. There's some very exploitative people out there, not just in the non like scientific realm. Like we know that there are people even in our industry, of course, who don't always behave appropriately. And so in order to protect people from this, we need to make sure that the mechanisms that we're using are sound like grounded in, in evidence that demonstrate that benefit but also so we can educate. Clients to know, okay, this is what, this is what's safe and this is not.

Dr Nat Green:

Absolutely. Yeah. So how else do you use it in your practice to help clients that might come in with anything? Mental health, illness, chronic illness. I mean it, like I said, it depends on the client. So most of the time I guess because also, like unfortunately in Australia we do have the limitations of Medicare. So there's, I can use it in certain ways, but there's, I. If I lived in other places and wasn't bound by Medicare, probably would have a lot more scope to use different strategies. We need to make sure that we're still using it within the scope of what's approved. Yes. And that's why I was talking to things like mindfulness practices and engaging people in activities that connect them with awe and wonder or doing, reflection journaling and gratitude journaling, these sorts of things. We, we're okay to use. But, and they still give people access to spirituality or that, that concept of spirituality that we're, we've been talking about quite readily. I. Yeah, we're still within the boundaries of the rules, so I didn't have those limitations. I wouldn't have a lot more that I would be using. But unfortunately, yeah in the context of clinical work, those are the limitations we have to work with. But they're still very powerful. The more modern therapeutic approaches like ACT, like DBT, compassion focused therapy, they're approved. Behavioral therapy or cognitive behavioral therapies, but they're also very spiritually minded. They all have a spiritual thread that runs through the, their protocol. And so we can use those quite safely. And we're still guiding people towards exercising that muscle. And then obviously clients have the freedom to go and read things, and if they ask for recommendations, you can know We can always, there's things that we can suggest to them, but within, yeah, within the guidelines of what we can do clinically. It would be using those sorts of thoughts. So, I'm gonna ask it. Don't you? You, you'll get me in trouble Nat, not at all....if we weren't working. Under the registered guidelines if you were doing coaching, for example, where you're not as restricted, how might you use spirituality still from an evidence-based perspective? How might you use that with your clients?

Tatiana da Silva:

There's different modalities that I have started to amass a body of evidence to show benefits that aren't approved for us to use clinically. But in a coaching sphere, we can. So something like there's the Hawaiian, it's called a Hawaiian forgiveness process like the Ho'oponopono and there is actually scientific evidence to show that that methodology can have benefits like for mental health, but also physical health. There were studies that were done that looked at I believe it was blood pressure. Something to, yeah, it was something to do with her cardiovascular system and it had a protective factor in it and alleviated some of the negative impacts that the person had from this health condition. So that was really fascinating. It was,

Dr Nat Green:

and can I speak to that, that I remember you, we were in a mastermind session and you suggested that might be helpful for me. When I was feeling a bit stuck about something and I remember you did it, and I thought, huh, this is a bit strange, but I'll, okay, I'll do it. However, I must say that, and I think if you were to measure my blood pressure at the time, I did feel calmer afterwards and a bit more settled within myself. Absolutely. And I think, as peer to peer. You weren't doing treatment, I wasn't going there for evidence-based research that was approved. You were very kind and gifted me with another way of looking at things and another practice. So I will definitely speak to that as being beneficial. So I'm happy to put that in our show notes.

Tatiana da Silva:

Oh, thank you.

Dr Nat Green:

Because yeah, it was very powerful and I'd love you to share more because. We are not off, we're not doing therapy here. This podcast is not around therapy and treatment, so feel free to share that bearing in mind. All our listeners out there who are listening, this is not treatment no. In any way, shape, or form, but you are more than welcome to explore it for yourself. Yeah. Absolutely. What else?

Tatiana da Silva:

Yeah and it's pretty harmless, like the Ho'oponopono, it's just, it's a visualization with a set of. Core phrases that a person will repeat or mentalize. And it does, it can have a really alleviating, soothing effect for the individual that's practicing it. I've anecdotally, so no, not so much. There's not so much body of evidence through this, but just from. My own personal experience and what some other people that have used this technique in their personal life have found it can actually have a very kind of transformative impact, particularly in situations of conflict with another person. It can help to soothe some of those conflicts. And so now we're talking about the, like the energetic level, right? And there is, there's evidence around different types of energy connections that we have with. With other individuals, with ourselves, the fields that we have around us. But that's still that knowledge or that body of knowledge hasn't really permeated into our clinical understanding of how it all fits. But I'll give you another example of something in this realm that's really fascinating. And this is just preliminary knowledge. Now we know that tapping EFT has got a clinical protocol. So they've done the hard works and started to build that evidence base. And so there's other modalities that are doing that work, but it takes many years. I think the other day I heard Peta Stapleton talking about this, and she said it can take up to 20 years Yes. To build up enough evidence for it to be considered appropriate to use clinically. But I, she actually in her, I follow, I get her newsletters and she, a while ago, issued a study that had just come out. Where some researchers in the US compared tapping so EFT with another modality that worked with the chakra system, so the energy centers in our body.

Dr Nat Green:

Oh, okay.

Tatiana da Silva:

And again, I'll preface this with, it's a very pre preliminary study. Okay. But no, am I saying that this is all like this? Oh, absolutely not. But it's intriguing enough when we start observing certain effects, you have to wonder, oh, what is this saying? And this. Study found that this energetic modality, looking at the chakra system was even more effective in terms of length of time that was needed for intervention than tapping itself.

Dr Nat Green:

That doesn't surprise me. It really doesn't surprise me. And let's be realistic. The things that are approved today for us clinically, if we are doing clinical work in our practice. Which I'm not anymore. If we are though, then that has come from, many years of research before it was approved. So what is approved for use now will not be just what's approved in 20 years. In 30 years. All of these things will probably be stock standard things with proven research to back it up.

Tatiana da Silva:

I believe that wholeheartedly. I really do. I think this, such, this now just this agitation of research that's being done to look at these spiritual dimensions and particularly like we're using neuroscientific methods to understand the way spirituality interacts with our brain and provides protective benefits to. To our brain that it's going to be inevitable that in a few years time we're going to be using these modalities or these, the focus on spirituality clinically as just a matter of what we do. I have no doubt about that.

Dr Nat Green:

Yeah, I have no doubt either. We know that what we're doing now just. Yeah. Stock standard talk therapy in the areas that are being approved is not enough. It is not working on its own. Yeah, there's a lot more research coming through. There's polyvagal theory, there's lots of information that shows that we can't just do the talk therapy and work on the cognitive level. We must do the head, the heart, the gut brains. We must do all of that and the spiritual connection is in that gut response.

Tatiana da Silva:

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. In. And we need to for healing to happen, we need to address all these four dimensions of human beings. And it's been moving slowly, right? Like you said, first it was just, and then it was the physical and mental. And now we're trying to understand, that there's this connection between the two. And now we're looking at the spiritual dimension.

Dr Nat Green:

And as human beings, we're multidimensional. We know that. There are so many components to a human being.

Tatiana da Silva:

Yeah, absolutely.

Dr Nat Green:

And we need to be holistic in how we do it because look, and by no means am I disparaging talk therapy, absolutely not. It absolutely has a place, but some people will find that it's not enough, so they will need to look further afield. And I love that. Things like connecting with awe. And other things and looking at inside out is a huge focus that you have when you are working with not just your clients, but you are now really branching out to work with therapists and coaches and helping professionals so that they can safely and with scientific evidence, bring that into their practice to have that greater impact with clients.

Tatiana da Silva:

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I think the time is definitely now.

Dr Nat Green:

Yeah. I think we're existing at a time that brings so many opportunities. It's exciting.

Tatiana da Silva:

Yeah. So sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you, but. Again, like I think this conversation that we're having is is unique to us being in Australia because in other parts of the world, this understanding is already so much more embedded in the way that, even clinical training is done. In. Parts of the world. There are clinical masters that involve a spiritual perspective. Even some faculties of medicine are starting to integrate a spiritual component to their medical training. It's definitely starting to expand and other places that just. Leading the way a little bit ahead of us. But now the time is, yeah. It's finally reached Australia and we're starting to catch up to everybody else and understand, okay, we need to do, we need to do this if we wanna help people. And you wanna be at the forefront of Yeah. Healing.

Dr Nat Green:

So are there any more wonderful bits of wisdom that you'd like to share?'cause I know you have so much, we could talk for hours and hours, but

Tatiana da Silva:

I. I just, yeah, I don't wanna open up any any rabbit holes that I'm just going to take us on a different direction. I think maybe just I guess what I would encourage people to think is. Yeah, just start to really reflect on what spirituality means to them, like their own personal experiences with spirituality. What has, what sorts of activities and places and experiences have helped them connect with that sense of expansiveness, that sense of trust, that sense of interconnectedness. And just doing and encourage people to do more of those things in their day to day, to really exercise that muscle and the benefits will come from that.

Dr Nat Green:

Yeah, definitely. And I know one of the other areas, and we talked about it on episode 24 when I had you on here, and we talked about how a lot of therapists, coaches have had their own stuff. A lot of us have, we're human beings, so we've lived through some trauma or adversity, and let's face it most human beings have at some point we know that 57 to 75%, this is the latest research, 57 to 75% of Australians, and it's about 70, 71% in the US of. People will experience trauma at some point in their life. And 11% of those people will go on to develop PTSD. So pretty much the majority of people will experience some sort of trauma or adversity. So when you are now branching out and really looking at training therapists and coaches to bring spirituality into their practice, I. That's such an important conversation to have. Because as therapists, coaches, we have spent so long trying not to highlight our own experiences and our own personal stuff and to keep it very separate and not bring it into the room. Yes. And I know that's a conversation we've had that when you come into a therapy room or a a. Coaching session, we wanna show up fully as ourselves as well.

Tatiana da Silva:

Yeah.

Dr Nat Green:

So that we can bring the best of us to our clients with appropriate boundaries and not sharing all the stuff that we've been through. Of course.

Tatiana da Silva:

Yeah, of course.

Dr Nat Green:

But we need to be able to bring all of ourselves into a room. Yeah. To give our clients. All of us, our knowledge, our wisdom and our ability to help them move forward, as you said, to get that connectedness and relationship as a priority.

Tatiana da Silva:

I. 100%. And I think when we show up authentically, we're giving people permission to do the same. So it's so important, even just in terms of nurturing that relationship and connection with the individual so they can feel, yeah, they can feel fully embraced. It's really important, and I think, we don't talk about this enough, but when there. There is a trauma when a person experiences a traumatic experience that has wounds like it has reached even on that soul level, right? I think there is, there's a part of person that feels that the impact of that, even on that soul level. And so to be able to repair on that level is also very important. Yeah, it's, I think having conversations around this is so important to, to guide people in their healing.

Dr Nat Green:

Definitely. Because we know that every single experience we have leaves an imprint in our nervous system.

Tatiana da Silva:

Oh yeah.

Dr Nat Green:

So when you say that those wounds and things are on a soul level, they are. Yeah. Our soul carries those imprints and our nervous system very much. At a, an unconscious level, we're not aware of that. Yeah. So when we work with anyone, when anyone steps into a room or a Zoom call or whatever we're working on telehealth or anything that if we aren't considering all parts of the person and bringing all parts of ourselves to that session, we're doing everyone a disservice.

Tatiana da Silva:

Yeah, 100%.

Dr Nat Green:

until we do that, we can't look to heal the wounds that are on our soul and in our nervous system and really imprinted deeply because we are gonna miss the core components. That's what I believe anyway, and

Tatiana da Silva:

yeah. I believe that too. I do. It starts it's one of the components that leads to fragmentation, right? Like it fragments us from our sense of self, like trauma undermines our sense of self and identity. And I think that has it, it definitely has a spiritual perspective to that too. We feel disconnected from Yeah. Our essence. Yes. In some way. Yeah, healing, like helping the individual to reconnect with that is. Is part of then helping them heal on those other levels? I think it needs, it almost needs to start there. We know there's always going to be the component of addressing the nervous system. That's very important. But it's also making sure that the person reclaims their whole self,

Dr Nat Green:

and by reconnecting and or connecting, if they've felt disconnected forever, it might be a soul wound from. Past that they're not even aware of or from very young, in the womb, in utero. We don't know. Do we? We don't, we have no idea.

Tatiana da Silva:

It's so funny. Like you, I've been sitting here going, oh, do I talk about this research or don't I? But since you open that door crack, I might just give this one tiny little tidbit. Put a little bit in there. There is, this is research that I find fascinating and unfortunately it's again, out of the realm of clinically accepted research, but it's still intriguing. Nonetheless. There's a department in the University of Virginia where they've been doing a lot of studies around sci- phenomena, so mediumship near death experiences, and they've also been amassing a body of evidence around reincarnational memories in children. So past life memories, children. And this, they've got a body, like they've got case studies that are dating back all the way to the sixties, so long time. They've been tracking this for a long time. And what's really curious is that what their research has done when they looked at, when they've done a meta-analysis of all the data that they've accumulated is a lot of the time when children have these memories. They had a traumatic death and the way that the children start to first recall these experiences often will come in the the means of dreams, nightmares. And sometimes it's that, like the traumatic replay, you know how children can sometimes replay events. Yeah. As a way of processing. Sometimes the children will start replaying events or drawing events that, that pertain to their previous death. That was traumatic. So that, I guess it's just maybe further evidence that the impact can grow so much deeper than just our yes. Our cognition or our emotions, or even our nervous system. It has a potential to yeah. To become imprinted on. Yeah. On that. soul level and then go on to impact us. Subsequent incarnations, if one accepts that, that's what happens.

Dr Nat Green:

Yeah. And whether that's something that our listeners accept or not, it's more just looking at what could be possible. And what some research is now showing, and it might be 50 years before we have more information. We might be long gone. You and I, who knows? Yes. But the reality is we need to open up our minds and our hearts to possibilities that there definitely is something beyond just us and by, yeah. Spreading the word and your beautiful gift of training people in this and being a voice and a huge advocate for this. By integrating spirituality more, we help people connect to their identity and get so much clearer. On who they are. So who we are as a human being and what could be beyond us that we can connect to and feel part of and interconnected rather than feeling so isolated and alone.'cause we know there's a huge. Loneliness epidemic at the moment.

Tatiana da Silva:

Oh, 100%. Yeah, absolutely. And there's data in research that shows this as well, right? Like that having this sense of spirituality or this sense of interconnectedness that comes from having a personal spiritual practice is a protective factor against loneliness.

Dr Nat Green:

Absolutely. As we move to wrapping up this conversation, Tatiana I'm just so grateful and blessed that you've come on and shared all your wisdom and your amazing tips today. Where can our listeners find out more about you? And I'd love for you to tell them about the course that you're running now and where they can find you if they're interested.

Tatiana da Silva:

Oh, thank you. Firstly, thank you so much for having me. It's always a pleasure to have conversations like this, but especially with you. So thank you. Thank you. And in terms of where to find me, like I said, there's, my podcast is probably a good place to learn more about some of these things that we're talking about. I will dive into the research in these different areas a little bit more. So if you're intrigued by anything that we've spoken about, you might wanna check the podcast. So it's called Integrated Wisdom. And in terms of the course that I have, I actually have a course about to launch next month. We kick off the actual course on the 5th of May, but the course launches on the 8th of April and it's basically targeted at psychologists and other mental health therapists who are interested in learning more about how to integrate spirituality into their practice in an ethical and evidence-based way. The course has a component where we go through some of these, practices for developing a personal spiritual practice, just to help them connect with that sense within themselves, to then guide them towards how to guide their clients towards the same, and we do a lot more of a deeper dive into the research that's out there that supports these, the different ethical. Considerations and in fact, support that exists for integrating a spiritual perspective in the work that we do clinically. And yeah, I love that space, it's an introductory course just to get people who are curious, starting, getting started with these concepts and playing around with it. But I think, it has the potential to then ripple from there with more and more of us starting to integrate this into our work. I think, yeah, our, we can only benefit from it because it helps us connect with our authentic self, but then it also helps clients, right?

Dr Nat Green:

Yes, it has that ripple effect, which is what you wanna have. You're on this mission to change the way that the world sees these things. And rather than you targeting every single person one-on-one by teaching. Professionals how to do it and put it in their practice. We really are gonna change that landscape. I love that so much.

Tatiana da Silva:

Yeah. And it's changing, right? Like even our board, I. As it's been, it's issued some new competencies that we need to abide by. And one of the new competencies is all around diverse practice, and one of the dimensions of that is supporting individuals in their spirituality. So we're now being, we're really being asked to factor this in, so there's no better time than now for us to really start having these conversations more openly amongst ourselves, professionals, but then also with our clients and giving them permission to do, I think a lot of clients actually wanna have these conversations, but they worry about how they're going to be perceived. And so giving'em that permission, could, has the potential to really deepen our connection and the work that we do.

Dr Nat Green:

Yes, absolutely. And again, the evidence-based stuff in your course and some of the other things that you and I touched on today won't be included in that, but we're welcome to have a look, see what's around there and start to explore research coming through. Because I know that in the future I've no doubt that it will be part of the research that's proven.

Tatiana da Silva:

Me too. It's coming.

Dr Nat Green:

Certainly an exciting time. So thanks again for sharing all of that today. I'll put every bit of information, resource, et cetera in the show notes for all our listeners. And as Tatiana said, you'll find her on Integrated Wisdom, which is an amazing podcast. And where else can they find you?

Tatiana da Silva:

I am also on Instagram. That's usually where I hang out the most, so my handle there is integrated_wisdom, and so I do, yeah, some posts in there too.

Dr Nat Green:

Thank you so much again. It's been beautiful catching up.

Tatiana da Silva:

No, thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.

Dr Nat Green:

Bye for now.

Tatiana da Silva:

Bye.

Dr Nat Green:

Thank you for joining me in this episode of Growing Tall Poppies. It is my deepest hope that today's episode may have inspired and empowered you to step fully into your post-traumatic growth, so that you can have absolute clarity around who you are, what matters the most to you, and to assist you to release your negative emotions. And regulate your nervous system so you can fully thrive. New episodes are published every Tuesday, and I hope you'll continue to join us as we explore both the strategies and the personal qualities required to fully live a life of post-traumatic growth and to thrive. So if it feels aligned to you and really resonates. Then I invite you to hit Subscribe and it would mean the world to us if you could share this episode with others who you feel may benefit too. You may also find me on Instagram at Growing Tall Poppies and Facebook, Dr. Natalie Green. Remember, every moment is an opportunity to look for the lessons. And to learn and increase your ability to live the life you desire and deserve. So for now, stay connected. Stay inspired. Stand tall like the tall poppy you are, and keep shining your light brightly in the world. Bye for now.

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Dr Natalie Green

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