Growing Tall Poppies

Episode 44:- Neuroscience and Attachment : A Personal and Professional Perspective

• Dr Natalie Green • Season 2 • Episode 44

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In this deeply insightful episode of Growing Tall Poppies, Dr Nat Green sits down with the incredible Tania Kalkidis—a seasoned Clinical Psychologist and Psychotherapist—who shares her powerful journey through trauma, healing, and transformation. She provides us great insight as an Expert in Psychodynamic Therapy and Training as to how therapists can best show up for their clients and themselves in the therapy room. Together, we explore the essential mindset shifts and tools needed to move beyond trauma into a space of post-traumatic growth.

Tania unpacks the hidden barriers to healing, the importance of self-worth, and how imagination can be a game-changer in breaking free from limiting beliefs. We also discuss the energetic dynamics in therapy, why therapists must learn to regulate their own nervous systems, and how projections play a crucial role in client relationships.

🔥 Key Takeaways/Highlights:
✔ Healing Starts with Belief – The first step in healing is deciding that change is possible and that you are worthy of it. If you don’t believe it’s possible, you unconsciously block your own path to healing.
✔ Reclaiming Authenticity – We weren’t born with low self-esteem. As babies, we express freely—without fear or shame. Over time, we learn to suppress emotions. Healing requires finding safe spaces to express our truth.
✔ The Power of Imagination – Everything in life starts as a thought before becoming reality. Visualizing yourself as healed, thriving, and whole is the first step to making it happen.
✔ Regulating the Nervous System – Therapists must regulate their own nervous systems to help clients do the same. Co-regulation is a powerful yet often overlooked aspect of trauma therapy.
✔ Projections & Energy Transfer – Invisible energy shifts occur in every interaction. Learning to avoid absorbing others’ emotional projections is critical for mental health professionals to prevent burnout.

✨ Tania’s Vision & Work:
Tania is now on a mission to train and coach psychologists, helping them feel more competent, confident, and less burned out in their practice. She has just launched an exciting new course designed to help therapists regulate their nervous systems and navigate the complex emotional energy in client work.

🔗 Want to Learn More and Connect with Tania?
Find out more about Tania’s work and her upcoming course 

Facebook here 

Website: www.deepmindpt.com/

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Bio

If this episode resonates with you then I'd love for you to hit SUBSCRIBE so you can keep updated with each new episode as soon as it's released and we'd be most grateful if you would give us a RATING as well. You can also find me on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/drnatgreen/ or on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/DrNatalieGreen

Intro and Outro music: Inspired Ambient by Playsound.

Disclaimer: This podcast is intended for educational purposes only. It is not intended to be deemed or treated as psychological treatment or to replace the need for psychological treatment.

Dr Nat Green:

Welcome to the Growing Tall Poppies Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Nat Green, and I'm so excited to have you join me as we discuss what it means to navigate your way through post traumatic growth and not just survive, thrive after trauma. Through our podcast, we will explore ways for you to create a life filled with greater purpose, self awareness, a deep inner peace through integrating the many years of knowledge and professional experience, as well as the wisdom of those who have experienced trauma firsthand. We will combine psychology, accelerated approaches, coaching and personal experience to assist you to learn, to grow and to thrive. I hope to empower you to create deeper awareness. and understanding and stronger connections with yourself and with others, whilst also paving the way for those who have experienced trauma and adversity to reduce their suffering and become the very best versions of themselves in order to thrive. Thank you so much for joining me on today's episode. Hi, welcome back to Growing Tall Poppies. I'm super excited today to bring you our next guest on the Growing Tall Poppies podcast. It's my absolute pleasure and privilege to welcome a wonderful lady and colleague, Tanya Kalkidis, to chat with us today. She has so very generously offered to share her experiences and her many powerful words of wisdom to give us both a personal and professional perspective. And I feel so grateful, honored and blessed to be able to do this with you today. So welcome, Tanya.

Tania Kalkidis:

Thanks so much, Nat. I feel very honored and blessed to be here with you. Thank you.

Dr Nat Green:

So, Tanya, can we start with you giving us, in your beautiful words, an introduction of who you are and what you do in the world?

Tania Kalkidis:

Thanks Nat. So I work and have worked as a clinical psychologist and psychotherapist for about 32 years now. I started off specializing with children and families and fortunately, fortuitously came into a post master's, master's and specialized with children, adolescents and families. Very soon, quickly, didn't really find my place, and set up a private practice very early on in my career. And in the last 15, sort of 20 years, a sort of second half of my career, been much more involved in supervision and training, psychologists in psychotherapy. And in the last five years or so being super interested in all the developments in neuroscience and trauma and integrating those really important aspects into our work as therapists.

Dr Nat Green:

Wow, that's a really. exciting and interesting blend because I know we chatted a little bit before we decided that we'd record the podcast around how you got into this, because I know that many of us think our path is mapped out. We go to uni, we do the stock standard, learn how to do psych treatment, and then we just continue on that path. But for you, it wasn't a straight path. There were lots of twists and turns. So would you like to share that with us as well?

Tania Kalkidis:

I've reflected on this quite a lot. And it's a lovely question that, and thank you for bringing that up because at the time, I don't know about you, but when I reflect on my state of awareness, it all through my sort of mid to late 20s, it wasn't very insightful or aware, obviously, committed to the learning, but extremely disengaged in my mid 20s, obviously, at a very sort of tumultuous time of my life, very unsettled, very unfocused, very unaware. More than anything, but, just landed in the, clinical master's training at La Trobe Uni in the early 90s and very bored. There was some aspects of it that were useful, but very, very bored and disengaged. So only knowing that I wanted to specialize with children and knowing that coming out of a, unfortunately coming out of A six year psychology degree didn't really give you any specialization with children and families. So essentially, uh, enrolled in a post master's master's, unbeknownst to me, it was psychodynamic in its orientation. And the most obvious thing happened and that is I became in, what we would know now as an engaged learner, where I felt that I was activated in the learning, engaged in the learning, interested, because the theory of mind that it proposed was one that made a lot more sense to me because it included the invisible, which is what, we now know as the unconscious. And the invisible, not just in the mind, but obviously the invisible in the body. And so learning those techniques and those skills and specializing in those two years is what gave me the competence, the understanding. To make sense of, myself and the work and then eventually three years later deciding to set up and run a practice on my own, which back then, as you know, there was, there was no Medicare, there was no government rebates, there was absolutely nothing. So it was an absolute dredge for about five years of door knocking and freebies and, you know, the days where we would literally have to walk down the street and knock on doors. Not metaphorically, like literally, internet was only what academics did. And, there was no internet, in the mid nineties, it came later. So everything was very laborious and obviously I was very poor, but committed to doing this work even back then. So as time has evolved and obviously experience and knowledge, the drive to integrate my deeper understanding of the mind and attachment theory is now blended in with neuroscience and trauma, which has become, I guess, in the last five to 10 years, a lot more researched, a lot more known and very much the missing link as far as what we do in the room with clients.

Dr Nat Green:

Oh, Tanya, I love that so much. What, a story. And I can so relate because that's the era that I did my study as well and, 35 years in the field of psychology for me and 32 for you, very similar that, I remember doing my uni assignments on a typewriter. We didn't have computers. I could not afford it. Yeah. That was, usually handwriting. And then they said, no, you need to type them, the old typewriter. So yes, hard for people coming through psychology as psychologists and learning that now, and people going to see psychologists to think that training wasn't always like. what We're presented with now that the neuroscience, we didn't have any of that information and there's so much that's new and newly accepted as being okay to discuss in the room with a psychologist. So. As you know, a lot of the guests that I get on have experienced trauma or adversity at some point in their life. And certainly it often guides us to where we do our best work from our own lived experience, as well as the knowledge that we've accumulated. So I'm just wondering if you wouldn't mind, if you could share a little bit how you got into this, lighting that spark for learning based on what's happened in your life, Tanya.

Tania Kalkidis:

Thanks, Nat. Another great question, and just reminds me of a post that's just come out on LinkedIn from Psychology Today, where it talks about emotional neglect, which really is the invisible neglect that a lot of more adjusted and functional, you know, personality types. experience And that certainly was the case for me, where there was that lack of attunement and understanding growing up, the profile of people who come into psychology and come into mental health and generally children who felt more in their families, who held that emotional space in their families and, in my case certainly didn't get that attunement or that understanding or that validation. So I spent a lot of time cycling in and out of a combination of both external, kind of acting out rebellion, but also internal, depression and anxiety as well. But Growing up in a very privileged kind of family where you had opportunities and I was encouraged to, educate myself and go to university, but definitely felt alone emotionally. And that's the biggest driver that I think drives a lot of mental health workers and psychologists into the field that we want to unconsciously because at the time, you know, we don't really know why and I knew I loved children, but I had no idea. But reflecting you find out that. That those unconscious drives are coming essentially because you want to heal those parts of yourself. And when you know that, as a therapist, you're in a great position to be able to heal others because you have that insight and it's not just an intellectual process of understanding and manualizing and giving treatment. So, that's definitely where the drive Came from, and of course, in that is varying degrees of difficulty and distress throughout my life in terms of fractured relationships with family members, you know, problems with addiction and there you have your linking points to be able to have that deep empathy and understanding for emotional isolation and pain.

Dr Nat Green:

Oh, thank you so much for sharing that from a personal perspective, because certainly I know things are starting to change, thank goodness, in the psychology profession. We weren't encouraged, if we did have some lived experience or something that was guiding us like you, your driver was, to give kids a different experience and to be able to heal yourself, but to then. Enable other children not to experience that feeling of fracturedness, is, is that even a word, being fractured, like you, yeah, like you experienced. And I know that things have changed, but that is something that you are so passionate about from a psych perspective that we are able to do that appropriately. in our room. So would you like to expand on that? Because I know that's your area of expertise and your big point of difference.

Tania Kalkidis:

Love to expand on that, Nat because that's where I feel extremely passionate, in terms of having the privilege of supervising a lot of psychologists and training a lot of psychologists in the last 15 years is that the biggest missing piece of the puzzle is their own internal awareness and insight. And so it's very, very difficult to be able to have a interpersonal connection and a relational connection with your client where you are trying to understand them at a deep level. When you don't have that awareness yourself, simply because you will get triggered. You will get triggered all the time with, the resistance, with the blockages, with, the conscious intent to want to change patterns, but the inability to. And as we know now, because of all the way in which trauma is stuck in the body and the way in which it's not known, it's not known consciously. It stays stuck at levels that are not consciously aware to the individual. So the first step for psychologists is to reduce the shame and the anxiety around exposing vulnerability, around exposing struggle, exposing issues. And if we start from that baseline, if we could all just start from the same baseline, I said, we all have issues, we've all struggled. We all have strengths and weaknesses. And if we can accept that, then the platform from which we can learn and spring off from will be a whole lot easier. But the enormous resistance around that for psychologists is what kind of upsets me, but also inspires me

Dr Nat Green:

the most. Oh, I completely 1000 percent agree with you because we are just taught, don't be vulnerable. Don't go into that space. Have your guard up. And, and we know. You and I in particular with the work that we've done and the difference you're making in the profession now that being authentic and being able to appropriately connect with the other person in our room. That's what makes a difference and helps people heal and start to change the way they respond and react in the world. It's, it's essential.

Tania Kalkidis:

It's essential. And what's interesting about obviously the work you do as well, you know, with trauma is that we know that those stuck points and those blockages in the therapist, in the psychologist, in the mental health workers are coming from exactly those places. So that's the paradox, you see, that, the very thing that you're trying to assist others with, you have not successfully assisted yourself with. So, so from there comes this enormous anxiety and pressure to create outcomes for clients, to fix clients. We don't create outcomes. Outcomes for anybody. We, can't do anything. Absolutely not. Everyone has their own will, their own mind, their own process, their own triggers. We're simply there to help make sense of those so that the individual can have more choice. You see, if I'm not aware of why I'm reacting the way I am, then I will just simply react the way I am. But if I have awareness and I can slow my processes down enough so they're not so automatic and patterned, then all of a sudden, instead of reacting, getting upset, becoming irritated, being frustrated, I can stay calmer, I can regulate. Myself better. I have more control over my mind, over my capacity to still think. And so, you know, all that firing that would go on in that amygdala and that your body's feeling under threat when you're reacting, whether you're anxious or angry or sad, you're having an emotional reaction. So, if we can reduce the time between the stimulus event and the response. Then we can start to, experience things very differently and for psychologists in the room, what that would look like. Is that you are reacting less and more comfortable with the intense distress that the other person is feeling, and particularly when they project it on to you, so it can be very direct, it says you're not helping me or. I'm feeling this way because I've been coming here for 20 sessions and it's because of you, like it can be that direct.

Dr Nat Green:

Yes, absolutely. So really changing those, unconscious patterns that are happening. For all of us, but bringing them into the awareness is what you do so beautifully with the psychologists you work with. And I think that's the fascinating thing that I love and the work that I do with changing those unconscious patterns, re patterning that and also looking at mopping up our nervous system. After we've done all the talk therapy and everything, we bring the awareness in and then we let go of the trauma that's stuck in our nervous system. And I know that neuroscience is your big area around attachment and neuroscience. So would you like to share a little bit more about that as well, Tanya?

Tania Kalkidis:

Absolutely. And I just also want to point out as you're talking it, it triggered another very important point. And that is that as a human being, and as you know, as a human being, that there's no, there's no end point. There's no, I'm aware. I'm done. I don't have issues. We're all vulnerable to getting triggered at any moment from each other, from other people. But what I'll do is I'll say that I'm quite comfortable saying if I've made a mistake, or because we don't intend, we're not on the psychopathy spectrum. So we're not intentionally harming or hurting anyone. But if we, Inevitably do or invariably do quite prepared to apologize, take responsibility, acknowledge, try and repair, because that is the key to creating that safety in the body. Absolutely.

Dr Nat Green:

while ever we continue to feel unsafe, particularly. The majority of listeners here who've experienced trauma, while ever they're feeling unsafe, they're going to be in that survival mode and on guard and not able to create that sense of safety and awareness that they're desiring. That's

Tania Kalkidis:

right. So, so what that would look like, you know, thinking about the way our work would, blend together and be quite similar is that we're not going to get those cues from the conscious mind. The conscious mind only knows so much so I can consciously, rationally, you know, cognitively understand that you haven't done anything in particular to upset me or disappoint me, but I feel upset and disappointed towards you. And so then we have to go, okay, so where is this coming from? Well, we know that there'd be two sources of that. One would be what has occurred in the past. With other people that has not been fully processed. So it's coming up in the moment. And because you are the one in the moment that's holding that space for them, it will be you. And then the second thing is, as you know that the implicit memories, which are the memories that occur prior to consciousness, prior to when we can talk, are stuck in the body. So there's actually a whole. Uh, somatic experience that is occurring and we can tune into that, in the room. We've got the skills now through the trauma understanding that we have to be able to work with the body states as well because the person is having a fractured experience of that. They've got cognitions going on. They've got. You know, a certain degree of awareness, but the body is having a response that often they can't explain. So, that's when it gets very interesting when you start to help people connect with what's actually occurring in their body and why their heart rates up or why they've got a pain in their left arm or what's going on in their stomach. As we know, a lot of distress gets stuck in the gut.

Dr Nat Green:

Absolutely. Yeah, we know so much, thankfully, is being done around gut health now. But it is, I think we're going to be blown away by the things that are still yet to be discovered around our gut health. But we know that we have the three brains, the head, the heart and the gut. And our gut is our innate wisdom, our inner knowing, that's from the perspective I come from, but it's very much the same as what you're saying, that when you are working with someone in your clinical room or in your coaching room, that it's very much getting them to tune into. what's going on, but having the awareness as to why it might be happening. And so for the listeners that are listening to this, who often feel as though, Oh my God, don't know where that came from. Oh, I've had this response out of the blue. This, you've so beautifully articulated the reason as to why that's happening a lot of the time.

Tania Kalkidis:

And just to share a little bit more that, I find it really interesting to think about where the vulnerability sits in the body, say between the head, the heart and the gut. So for me, it's more in the heart space. It's where I feel it more. There's the, it goes there quicker. There's more of a weakness there over time through different, you know, what life does to you that it's felt in the heart and doesn't mean the gut doesn't register it. But it's very interesting to think about your own particular. places in your body that you're more attuned to than others or where you notice it shows up more for you than others, which parts of your body and what you can start to notice, because that can give you lots of clues as well. In terms of learning how to pay attention and slow things down and start to make better decisions for yourself, particularly around your boundaries. A lot of it comes down to, to boundaries.

Dr Nat Green:

Oh, definitely. And I think, again, as you said, we've got the three brains, the head, the heart and the gut. And if you're sitting here listening to this now and you think, Oh, I don't really get that gut response that Nat's talking about, or, or often don't feel things like Tanya's saying, then That's exactly why that we know that when someone experiences trauma or has had a life full of trauma, the reality is that usually one of those brains shuts down as a protective mechanism. So if you're listening and you're thinking, Oh, I don't think before this stuff happens, I'm not aware of any thoughts that go on. It's probably because you've learned how to protect yourself and shut that down. So working with a therapist, a coach, whoever it is that you choose to work with. They're the things that are going to be really, really important to work on. Connecting the three brains and acknowledging where some of that is difficult for you. But knowing that there is a way to reconnect it. It's not like you've lost it and there's no connection and that's it.

Tania Kalkidis:

That's another really good point, isn't it? That things can reconnect. They can, and that's what we know about, neuroplasticity now is that, in these books that I was reading came out sort of in the late 2000s or 2009, that, that famous Norman Doidge book, The Brain That Changes Itself that that's the first book I read back then that really. Yeah, that's what started me off on the neuroscience pathway, and particularly Chapter 9, it was all about the psychotherapeutic connection in terms of what's happening in the brain, but that we now know That things aren't stuck and fixed. And so, in a way, what that means is there's

Dr Nat Green:

hope for everyone. Absolutely. And often it's around just looking for the little, as I call it, little breadcrumbs along the way. So looking at Where might there have been a little breadcrumb put there that I didn't quite pick up that now with the awareness and the insight I've got that I can go back to and go, ah, yeah, that might be one of the keys to how I can start to change my brain. And yes, again, I highly recommend that book. And that was one of the books that changed things for me as well. At that time of, our career, it's like, wow, the brain really can be changed. It's not stuck the way we thought it was a lot of the time.

Tania Kalkidis:

Yeah, that's right. So when the wiring occurs in those first two years and that right brain gets all wired in from a social and relational point of view, that's why it feels so hard because, one of those classic lines, and I'm sure you've heard this a lot is this is just who I am. Mm hmm. And I I beg to differ. I would say this is just what you've become. This is what you've become based on the way you have internalized your external experiences. And so if that's what you've become based on all these series of events that have occurred in your life, and if those events and if things start to change externally for you as you've, you make different choices, leave situations, leave relationships, create new connections in your life with different people, then the internal wiring can change because you can actually, repattern those neurons now and some beautiful, I don't know whether they use electron microscopes anymore, but there's incredible footage of, neurons actually making new connections in the brain that, that we're seeing now. And, just the actual science of it is very validating. It's not, it's science. It's, not just, wishful thinking or. Absolutely. It's actually science.

Dr Nat Green:

Yeah. And that's one thing that comes up a lot is that we know that the person we were before our trauma. It's not who we are now. We can't possibly be exactly the way we were because things have changed. Our interpretation of things have created change within us. However, that's not a bad thing. It's about owning who we are, owning our identity, and like you just said, who you've become can be whoever you want it to be. We get to rewrite our story and step into who we want to be, rather than accept, oh, that's just me. Because of what's happened to me. No. Absolutely not. We can make that different if we make a choice. Not easy. Of course it's not easy. I'm not sitting here saying, oh, stuff's happened and, you know, you can just fix it. We know it's not that easy. Absolutely. So tell us a bit more about that Tania because I really enjoyed that and the way you've linked that in, that You can change who you are, who you want to become.

Tania Kalkidis:

So it's very micro as far as what happens in the interpersonal relationship, you know, when we, when we actually find us, you know, what happens in our relationships, how we get triggered, how we communicate our moods, our reactivity, that's what people. would say they're stuck in that they really struggle to, and they, they identify themselves as being that person. So the first thing we need to do is help people understand that that person has developed that way. And that includes, you know, when we talk about your own internal narrative and how you actually, the whole narrative that runs through your life. As a result of what has occurred externally, and so if we start to break that down, so there's all these, so one of the key moments of where we're heading in therapy is that you can, you need to start to see your parents as two separate individuals, not as your mother and father, even though they are your mother and father, who were flawed. Who had their own, oftentimes, not always, but often, their own mental illness or their own significant psychological blind spots. And let's just say, particularly for us Nat, our parents, you know, post war or war, and what's happened in, you know, three, four generations since, levels of insight. Very, very low to zero. So, any child who is raised with parents whose emotional intelligence, another, another thing that we never knew about 25 years ago, EQ, whose EQ is particularly low. So there's no understanding of what goes on emotionally. Emotions aren't spoken. They're not understood. They're not validated. They're not. There's no communication skills, there's nothing. You have not been taught the basics and the foundations of interpersonal relationships. So I would say to you sitting here in front of me, that on what basis do you make that claim that this is who you are? Well, this is what you, had to do under a difficult set of conditions. And so we have to break through that denial because we've all on some level, Wanted to see our parents in a positive light, obviously not all of us if the abuse was really overt and and really destructive from early on. But, those projections, those idealizations have to be broken down. It doesn't mean you can't love and support your parents, but you need to see them through a different lens in order to do the healing. And that's one of the keys.

Dr Nat Green:

Yes. Very, very powerful in creating a change. And I would imagine as you're doing that, that brings up, even just talking about that, people are probably sitting there going, Oh, Oh, that doesn't feel comfortable. I don't want to think like that about them. They're my parents. I can't do that. And you're not. Definitely not saying, Oh, we have to think badly of them. We all do the best we can with what we've got. However, we must acknowledge that there's lots of things that have impacted every one of us to get us where we are now.

Tania Kalkidis:

Exactly. As we know we know about attachment theory. I mean, this was the sixties and the seventies. We've known this for a long time. And all the conditions under which and what an infant needs in order to develop a secure attachment. And if you write out a list of all those conditions, and I get you to cross check that list against what your parents were doing back then, I could guarantee you there's hardly any ticks in those boxes, because they didn't have the skills. And we don't, like you said quite correctly, we don't hate or blame or, or hold. Bitterness and frustration. We can make choices as absolutely as to whether or not we want them in our life, depending on their degree of toxicity. But even that's a challenging thought for a lot of people. They have this, this rule in their mind that no matter how toxic and inappropriate my parents are, I have to have and maintain a relationship with them. I'm like, I don't agree. I think it doesn't actually. I don't agree at all, to be honest. If, if that's what you want to do, of course, I have absolutely no judgment, but there's no rule. And anywhere written saying that because this is your mother and your father, you have to maintain a relationship with them, particularly when they continue to bring distress and trauma into your life. So definitely helping people get to the point where they can at least be open to the possibility that they can choose is a huge part.

Dr Nat Green:

of the work. Oh, definitely. And I think as well, also, and you alluded to it earlier, being able to set boundaries. You may choose to still have them in your life or anyone who has had some level of toxicity, however you can do it with really clear boundaries. So can you share a little bit more around the boundary setting? Cause that is essential, particularly for someone who's been through trauma.

Tania Kalkidis:

Yes. And the most amazing part of talking about boundaries is how much that comes up as therapists. Absolutely. Okay, so this is where it all becomes super interesting and where it all becomes super difficult for psychologists who, who haven't done the work on themselves. They will find it very, very hard to set appropriate boundaries in the room, whether that be finishing on time. But, those external boundaries, but the boundaries around what comes into you emotionally and how you manage all those demands and needs, of the client. So, having those boundaries requires that you have what we call a strong sense of self. Now, a strong sense of self can only be developed in a child when they've had a secure attachment. So you can see if you just do the math there that that that is not what people have. Because less than 5 percent of the population experience a secure attachment when they're growing up, which is just an alarming statistic when you think about it. That's

Dr Nat Green:

frightening. Is it really less than 5%?

Tania Kalkidis:

Less

Dr Nat Green:

than 5, yeah.

Tania Kalkidis:

Wow. So, where you have developed, healthy sense of self, confidence, proper boundary setting. Meaning. That you are not anxious when you have to say no to someone, you can, decline, you can, also express when there is difficulty, you can raise issues, you don't have to, agree to constantly pacify and avoid conflict. So conflict avoiding and insecurity are insecure and avoidant attachment styles. Most people have anxious and insecure and avoidant attachment styles. And if that's what's going on for you, and we, we're now a therapist in the room for the listeners who are therapists. And I know there are a lot of listeners who aren't, but either way you have to learn how to have boundaries. And if you don't have strong and effective boundaries in your personal life. You will not have strong effective boundaries in your professional life. It's really that simple. Absolutely. Yeah. So it's all about insecurity and, finding a way to feel more confident with who you are, knowing at any moment that someone is not going to like you.

Dr Nat Green:

Absolutely. And isn't it interesting that the more we set the boundaries, oh, the more that comes to the fore, doesn't it? Particularly if the people in our lives have not been used to us setting boundaries and suddenly we start to set them. As we do the work on ourselves, it's like, ah. Oh, and we know that things always escalate and things get worse before they can start to improve.

Tania Kalkidis:

They won't improve. And then, then you have to eliminate people from your life. It's, one or the other. Exactly.

Dr Nat Green:

Yeah. I love that. And I love that you talk about this so openly and that you. Don't accept the status quo and that you've done so much work in this area, Tanya. So, if we go back to you shared a little bit about, your own background and what led you to finally connecting and becoming an engaged learner because you got it through that lens and you knew that was the right approach for you. So, do you recall any turning point or significant realization that helped you shift from thinking, Yes, this is true about me as well, and this is how I can move forward.

Tania Kalkidis:

It's a great question. I wish I had a memory that stood out above any other memory. I guess, like, all I could say is that I don't have a specific memory, but all through my twenties, that was the most tumultuous Time of my life is this sort of dawning and this realization that I actually wasn't okay. And so the, I started my own therapy. I had three different lots of therapy over that decade at different times with different people for different reasons, which is always what's recommended as you grow and develop that you seek out different types of therapists to meet you where you're at. But the understanding came essentially through my own therapeutic work, where I had to now start to understand. I understood the first stage was understanding things intellectually and academically, because I was always really good at that. But where I wasn't good was actually connecting emotionally and being able to. Understand what I was storing emotionally and how much, how many defenses I had around being vulnerable. It made it impossible for me to open up and expose, weakness and vulnerability. And that's essentially anyone who, who works with addiction or has addiction or understands addiction, that's the pathway out. So, so it was gradual, but it was essentially pivoting around my own ability. To connect with myself and be open to needing help, which I was not able to do for a very long time.

Dr Nat Green:

Yeah, thank you for sharing that so honestly and vulnerably as well. And again. Interesting, when we've talked about those three brains, and you already talked about the heart one is, is your most challenging, that that maps it perfectly, that you got it intellectually, of course you did, because you were in your head, you could intellectualize things, you could make it make sense, but the feeling it, you had had to protect your heart. Because of whatever it was that you'd been through and all the things that came at you and when you got this realization in your 20s, as you were doing the work and learning and coming into this area of psychology, you went, ah, I got it. So you started to allow that heart space to open up. Would that be right?

Tania Kalkidis:

Yeah. It took a decade. So that only really started into my thirties once I ended up getting married and started my own family. That's another stage, an evolutionary stage of dawning of separateness from, from your birth family, from the family that you're born into, because you start that process of sifting through what you agree with, what you don't agree with, what you align with, what you don't align with. And. Hopefully you come out the other end and you're aligned. But unfortunately in my case, I didn't, because there wasn't enough alignment, on very significant things, not just, you know, where we decided to leave all the hobbies we did, but very significant things. So, so you don't know, you don't know where it's, where the journey's going to take you and whether you're going to still travel with the same people that you travel with, and you've got to be very, very capable of, making. Difficult decisions in life if you want to grow, because it is, definitely more painful because you will have to let people go. And that's where everyone gets stuck.

Dr Nat Green:

Yeah. We do say that a lot. Don't we? That, that feeling of I need to stay connected to this person or these people because this is, what I have to do, what I should do, or this is that part of my life that I'm not ready to let go of yet.

Tania Kalkidis:

That's right. And that's why I've come more than ever in my life. And obviously, you know, as we're getting older, we get a little more, a little more wiser. Yeah. Hopefully fingers, fingers and toes crossed. That's what we'll tell ourselves. We do. But for me, it's less judgment. You see, it's moving from a space of extreme judgment and arrogance into a space of no judgment. I understand that it's, it's painful and that people are choosing whatever they're choosing and you have to let them choose and you mitigate against whether that's having an impact on you or not. But if it's not having an impact on you, then the judgment is futile, unnecessary and quite harmful. So, so that's what I've learned to do more and more and more is, is not judge what anyone chooses, wherever they're at, whoever they want to have in their life. And, and for clients, and this is what I say to all the psychologists that come in for training and coaching. What that client does when they leave the room has absolutely no impact on you. So can you make it matter less? Because what you're doing is you are unfortunately linking your worth and your self esteem and competence as a psychologist. to their behaviour. And that is a really faulty link to make.

Dr Nat Green:

Oh, I love that so much. So, so true. And not even just as a psychologist, I think many different professions We link the outcome of what that person chooses to do or how they choose to respond to whatever has been offered in their room to our own success. And when you put it like that, it's ridiculous, isn't it? It's like. Really? What gives me the right to, to take responsibility for that? It's like, no, good or bad.

Tania Kalkidis:

Hmm. Hmm. It's so much, it's just as dangerous to link the good because then you're at risk of pumping up your ego and becoming prideful. And so there's danger both ways. So, you know, we, want to find that beautiful middle space where I'm showing up, I'm present, I'm giving, I'm connected. And then our conversation ends and you go your way and I go my way and it's all about letting go. But for the novice psychologist coming in who's been, I was going to say brainwashed, it might be a bit strong, but I guess educated to be pitting their success, to be linking their success to client outcomes. That's how, that's what's been driven into your brain. So your brain cannot think in any other way. So if that client doesn't have very good outcomes, then you're going to feel incompetent and worthless. And highly anxious as a psychologist until five, ten years pass, and then you're going to burn out.

Dr Nat Green:

Sad isn't it, really. And unfortunately, you and I, I know we've talked about this already, and we could talk forever around this, but the landscape of psychology and the profession, It's not without it's, let's say it's systemic issues and faults. That was nice, wasn't it?

Tania Kalkidis:

It was extremely diplomatic and,

Dr Nat Green:

and very

Tania Kalkidis:

professional and I couldn't agree more. So systemically, I fundamentally disagree with the notion that your competency is determined by. clients coming into your room and changing. And I guess from a relational point of view, when you think about trauma, then that is connected there as well, because if this person abandons me and rejects me, then, and so I tolerate negative behavior, I tolerate neglect, I tolerate abuse, I tolerate whatever I tolerate, because I'm so I'm so broken and damaged that, I don't feel that I have any worth to expect anything different. And that's why I tolerate. So, so if we help people to feel their worth, to connect with what's inside them that is, is worthy to be loved, and that they don't define themselves according to what happened to them when they're a child, then all of a sudden, I can let go and I can, I can leave and I can choose someone who is going to treat me well and isn't as toxic and I can feel confident in the room because I'm not, my worth isn't dependent on your behavior.

Dr Nat Green:

Yes. Well said. I love it. And there's many. Psychologists and therapists and health professionals that listen to this podcast. And I think they're going to get huge value out of the comments you've just made. And you know, there's lots of allied health professionals that are in our community. And I know that that is the same across their professions as well. So I think they're really, really important things that we need to know and learn from. I'm just thinking, Tania, do you think there's any specific qualities or personal attributes that you see as being key for someone to move through trauma and into post traumatic growth?

Tania Kalkidis:

Great question. And I do think there are some key qualities. One of them would be this idea that it's possible. So what quality does that connect to? Connects to the idea that, that you're worth it, that you have a belief in yourself and your worth to the extent that you're going to continue to struggle. That it's possible And so once you shift into a space inside you where you feel that you're worth it, then doors will open because you're blocking your own ability to be able to get what you need to heal because you don't feel worth it. So it's a bit of a catch 22. Yeah,

Dr Nat Green:

it is isn't it?

Tania Kalkidis:

Yeah. So, so the first step is to decide that you were not born with low self esteem. Absolutely. Okay, so babies are open, they don't carry with them complications, they're pure, they're not prideful, they're honest, and they're completely genuine. They can't pretend, to be okay when they're not okay. They cannot stop themselves from crying. And so you learn over time to stop yourself from crying, to pretend you're okay when you're not okay. So find someone that you feel safe enough with to share how not okay you are. That would be the first step. Whether that's a professional that you pay or not, it doesn't really matter. But somebody who doesn't have an investment In your behavior, in what you choose to do, because it's when you feel that pressure, like someone's pushing you to leave or pushing you to stay or getting upset when you don't come for dinner. Then that's not a free space. So there's someone in your life who can hold that space for you. Often it does have to be someone that you pay because of the complicated way in which we relate to everyone.

Dr Nat Green:

But

Tania Kalkidis:

if, if you have what I'd call a real friend, which as you know, is very hard to find, but if you have one, then, then just practice rather than giving all the time, just practice sharing a little bit more of your struggle.

Dr Nat Green:

Yeah, what a really great quality and attribute to mention. Is there any, others or could you share one thing with our listeners that would help them as they navigate moving from trauma through to post traumatic growth? So

Tania Kalkidis:

the other, the other thing is that, to really identify yourself as being somebody who has the ability to become the person that you want to be. So what you could do and what it involves a lot of the time is being able to imagine, you see, if you can't think, if, for example, you're addicted to nicotine and obviously I work a lot with addiction. It's one of my specialties. We have, we tend to specialize in things that. that we've gone through and we're familiar with. But if you can't visualize yourself, for example, not smoking, then, we're kind of not really ready to start the process of not smoking. So being able to imagine yourself, you know, in a different situation, making different choices to which connects back to believing it's possible, but using the power of imagination in the mind can be, really liberating. They say that everything that's created in your life was first a thought.

Dr Nat Green:

I'm going to quote you on that one. I do love that. Oh, everything created in your mind was first a thought.

Tania Kalkidis:

Yes. Well, everything created in your life, your external life was before it became manifested, the house you live in, the people in your life, the hairstyle, the clothes you're wearing first before it became that it was a thought. So at a mind level, if you are stuck or, feeling restricted in terms of what you can achieve, the first step is to use your imagination. And just allow yourself to imagine it. And even if that means pretending, because imagination is pretending. And everything that's created was an idea in someone's mind. I'm going to design the microphone like this. It's going to have this shape. It's going to be this color. It's going to have these features. So everything's first a thought. So that's why they call mind the builder. So the mind has a thought and then you work towards creating it external to yourself and that's what we call our external life. So. All you creative people out there who have strong, ability to visualize and imagine, I'm sure a lot of you do because you're sensitive, you're not listening to this podcast just by happenstance, you want to grow and learn and develop. So you use your imagination to visualize something that you want that you can't imagine that you can have, use your imagination and just see what happens when you do that.

Dr Nat Green:

Oh, I love that. That is so powerful. And how many times with the people we see and with ourselves as we've grown and developed, how many times as adults have we lost the capacity to imagine, to dream? It's been quashed because of other people's thoughts, beliefs, experiences that we've taken on board and we've shut down that part of us. It's powerful and super important for us to heal and move forward and be able to continue to grow. Cause like you said, it's never finished.

Tania Kalkidis:

No, sadly, no. No. We're always learning. Oh no, it's so annoying. Right, we have little breaks, you know. Life's just being, being kind to you for a moment. Nothing calamitous is occurring. You've got a break, you've got a pause, you've got a breather. But for a therapist in a room, for those of you who are therapists, what does that look like? Can you imagine your client is stuck? Distressed, you can't, they've been like this for 10 sessions. And could you, can you visualize yourself being really calm? You see, it's like, Oh, what do I do? And I don't know what to do. And they're so stuck. And they're so anxious. And, I don't think I'm helping them. Well, the first thing you need to do is regulate your own nervous system in the room. So can you just imagine that you can sit in that space of extreme discomfort and distress because that's the space they're in and stay calm. Can you imagine doing that? Can you imagine just being calm? So that's our first step. Because you're so anxious, you're so driven, you're so hyper aroused, you feel you've got to do all these things that you can't do because they won't let you. So now you're going to have to calm down.

Dr Nat Green:

Very powerful and, essential because they will regulate their nervous systems from our nervous systems. So it's our responsibility. To be able to regulate ourselves, that is so important and one of the things that I believe is one of the key areas missing in stock standard trauma treatment is that we're not often acknowledging, more so in the last five to 10 years, definitely, but acknowledging things that are stuck in our nervous system and that we need to work out ways to process things fully and move it on. And regulating our own nervous system is essential. Yeah. So that's good. So Tania, I'm just wondering, where are you now as a result of the trauma, the adversity you've had and all the great work you've done, and what are your visions for the future for you? Hmm. I

Tania Kalkidis:

love all your questions. So well thought through. So where I'm at now is, I'm sort of, in a new phase of my life, exposing myself, to the online world for the first time. And really drawing on everything we've been talking about in terms of, doing a lot to help regulate my nervous system to help keep myself open while struggling with a whole bunch of things that I'm feel extremely just not good at because I haven't learned. So, exposing yourself to new learning at any time in your life really draws on your ability to embody these truths for yourself so that's what I feel like I'm doing as I've entered into the online training world, just very recently in the last six months. And so getting a lot better at tolerating discomfort and, skill building around tech and, social media and all the things that, I had, completely avoided up until now, but wanting to reach more psychologists and help them more to experience more competency and confidence in the room, but obviously also less burnout. So. Just committed to wanting to train and coach and to help more people so that the outcomes that they get in the room with their clients and all the other listeners that, really wanting to learn and grow and heal themselves from their trauma, that will be a, beautiful kind of circle of life, way to, have the impact.

Dr Nat Green:

Oh, so fabulous and honestly, so needed hearing you speak today with that ability to articulate what has happened to you, what is needed in our profession and to have a way to help new and more advanced psychologists show up differently in a room so they can continue to make a bigger difference and have a ripple effect is so powerful. And I know that you've taken this huge leap of faith and stepped into the online space I know you've got some courses coming up, your first one's coming up really soon. So tell our listeners about the course that you're running because I think that it will be very valuable for many of them who are interested.

Tania Kalkidis:

So my target audience is psychologists and we'll be extending to mental health professionals who work with people and helping them understand how to regulate their own nervous systems, but also to not absorb. What I call projections. So these are the invisible energy transfers that occur between two people. And as you and I know Nat everyone is struggling with their own lives and everything that's going on. And everyone has to some degree reactivity in their mind body system. And, We all get triggered. So, I specifically helped psychologists taking them through a four week course that I've just developed. So it's a small amount of time, but jam packed with, very doable and achievable steps, that you can learn to reduce your own emotional burnout, your own lack of confidence or lack of clarity in the room with how to navigate the complexity of, human relationships and teaching psychodynamic theory in a way that's quite digestible, because it's a very complex topic that often takes years and years of study. So, condensing. That as well as attachment and neuroscience to, help people start to position themselves to, do that work, but also to learn how to, regulate and reduce that pressure to fix, which is what ends up, taking energy away too soon in many people's careers. And we know that mental health in general, particularly in Australia, is really suffering and, so we need input to help the helpers, help in better ways and help for longer.

Dr Nat Green:

Oh, so, great to hear you say that, because we know that people are leaving health professions in droves and something has to change. So if, if you working with, many, many therapists to change this and help them stay in the profession for longer, or get out and make that choice that it's time for them to leave it because it's toxic for them. will help The right people stay in the profession or the people that no longer want to do it find something else and another way to help the people that they're ready to work with. So could you just share with us Tanya where people can find you and I will put everything in the show notes so everyone can click on the links and check out what you've got offering. on your page. Where will we find you? Thank you very

Tania Kalkidis:

much. So I run the Deep Mind Psychodynamic Training. There's a Facebook page called Deep Mind Psychodynamic Training and Facebook, under Tania Kalkidis and also have an Instagram account, Tania Kalkidis, and I'm on LinkedIn as well. So they're the three, social media sites that I, have information. And there was, also got a new website. Deep mind psychonomic training, that you can, get a better understanding of the course and the structure and the cost. And there's a free attachment quiz on that, that where you can do to find out what attachment style shows up for you in the room, which is a great starting point to understand where you need to focus your attention and make some shifts. So if you get on the website, you can do that quiz and get that data straight away. And you can directly email me if you'd like to discuss, joining the course. The, February one for the first time is being run next week and then doors will open again. For the next launch at the end of April.

Dr Nat Green:

Excellent. Thank you so much. I'm going to take your online quiz. I'm going over to do that after we're finished today. Very interested to see, hope I might fall in that 5%, but you know, I might be a bit delusional there too.

Tania Kalkidis:

You want only A's. I'll give you the cheats. I'll give you the cheat notes. Just tick A for everything and you'll be 10 out of 10 secure. Or a psychopath one or the other. Yeah, yeah, you're allowed to make two mistakes. If you get eight out of ten, that's called good enough and you'll still be secure. So that's a tip for you, Nat, just for you.

Dr Nat Green:

Thanks, just for me, thank you. And thank you again for coming on today. It's been so wonderful to chat. I've loved having you on and I know you will have provided so Much food for thought and value to our listeners. So thank you, Tania I

Tania Kalkidis:

appreciate you very much having me and really looking forward to watching growing tall poppies grow even taller. Thank you. Bye for now.

Dr Nat Green:

Thank you for joining me in this episode of Growing Tall Poppies. It is my deepest hope that today's episode may have inspired and empowered you to step fully into your post traumatic growth so that you can have absolute clarity around who you are, what matters the most to you, and to assist you to release your negative emotions and regulate your nervous system. So you can fully thrive. New episodes are published every Tuesday And I hope you'll continue to join us as we explore both the strategies and the personal qualities required to fully live a life of post traumatic growth and to thrive. So if it feels aligned to you and really resonates, then I invite you to hit subscribe and it would mean the world to us if you could share this episode with others who you feel may benefit, too. You may also find me on Instagram at growing tall poppies and Facebook, Dr. Natalie Green. Remember, every moment is an opportunity to look for the lessons and to learn and increase your ability to live the life you desire and deserve. So for now, stay connected, stay inspired, stand tall like the tall poppy you are. and keep shining your light brightly in the world. Bye for now.

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